On the topic of minutes and the FirstIB resolution

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From: David Graham - SPI Secretary <cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
To: spi-announce(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
Subject: On the topic of minutes and the FirstIB resolution
Date: 2004-11-29 19:03:19
Message-ID: Pine.LNX.4.55.0411291401240.12836@baffin
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The following minutes wwere accepted by the Board of Directors of SPI
during its meeting on November 9th, 2004.

1. Meeting opened at 19:00 UTC on October 5th, 2004 and took place in #spi
on irc.spi-inc.org


2. Roll Call

Board members in attendance [Name (nick) (role)]:

John Goerzen (CosmicRay) (President)
Benjamin Mako Hill (mako) (Vice President)
David Graham (cdlu) (Secretary)
Jimmy Kaplowitz (Hydroxide) (Treasurer)
Ian Jackson (Diziet)
Bdale Garbee (bdale)
Bruce Perens (BrucePerens)
Martin Schulze (JoeySPI)
Branden Robinson (Overfiend)

No board members were absent.

Registered guests present:

MJ Ray (slef)
Michael Schultheiss (schultmc)
Romain Francoise (ore)
Drew Scott Daniels (mlots)
Phil Brooke (philb208)
Alexander R Perry (LabARP)
Christian T. Steigies (cts)
Michael Banck (azeem)


3. President's update

John Goerzen stated that he plans to establish a section on the website
for the president to maintain a general todo list and archive of reports.


4. Treasurer's report

Jimmy Kaplowitz reported that our AmEx Centurion Bank account has been
closed and we will be opening an account with First Internet Bank instead.

As a result, SPI has no chequing account at this time.

Recently merged Fleet bank and Bank of America were not considered an
option due to their merger and questions arising out of it, namely if
Fleet's good deals would survive.

First Internet Bank has a decent non-profit deal, which is a business
account minus the monthly bank fees.


5. Outstanding minutes

September 7th, 2004:

Ian Jackson: Yes
John Goerzen: Yes
Bdale Garbee: Yes
Bruce Perens: Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz: Yes
David Graham: Yes
Martin Schulze: Yes
Benjamin Mako Hill: Abstain

Vote count: Yes: 7, No: 0, Abstain: 1
The minutes of September 7th, 2004 were approved.


6. Resolution 2004-10-04.jrk.1: Begin Banking with FirstIB

The discussion:

Ian Jackson expressed concern that the resolution requires our compliance
with First Internet Bank's account agreement terms. Item 7 of the account
terms, found at http://www.firstib.com/apply/pdf/corpdepapp.pdf, requires
the issuing of a digital signature by the bank which could give us some
liability as ostensibly authorised transactions could take place should
the key get into the wrong hands.

Ian pointed out also that First Internet Bank denies all responsibility
for fraudulent transactions originating on their on line services. Should
the bank leak our password, we are liable, Ian argued. John Goerzen
pointed that they would be liable under liability law.

Ian said he would be amenable to the account if our balance is
maintained low to reduce our liability risk.

Ian expressed concern that a disgruntled Debian Developer could sneak a
virus onto the treasurer's computer and send all the money to Nigeria, as
an example of our risk.

Bdale Garbee pointed out that the banking system's terms of service exist
within the context of the legal system.

After extensive discussion, it is agreed that the treasurer will make an
effort to maintain the account balance below $5000 to limit our
potential liability.

Branden Robinson noted that our remaining funds in our American Express
Financial Advisors account will remain there, so this is not a problem.

The vote:

John Goerzen: Yes
David Graham: Yes
Ian Jackson: Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz: Yes
Branden Robinson: Yes
Benjamin Mako Hill: Yes
Bruce Perens: Yes
John Goerzen: Yes
Martin Schulze: Yes
Bdale Garbee: Yes

Yes: 9, No: 0, Abstain: 0
Resolution 2004-10-04.jrk.1 was passed unanimously on the understanding
that the Treasurer does want to restrict what he can do in unexpected
circumstances, but expects the account to be under $5000 most of the time.


7. Resolution 2004-10-05.bmh.1: Permanent Legal Address

This matter went directly to a vote with no discussion.

Branden Robinson: Yes
John Goerzen: Yes
David Graham: Yes
Benjamin Mako Hill: Yes
Ian Jackson: Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz: Yes
Bruce Perens: Yes
Bdale Garbee: Yes
Martin Schulze: Yes

Yes: 9, No: 0, Abstain: 0.
Resolution 2004-10-05.bmh.1 was unanimously approved.


8. Resolution 2004-10-04.bmh.2: Relicense Debian Logo

This matter was deferred to the November meeting in the interests of
obtaining more feedback from the membership of the members of the
debian-legal Debian project mailing list.


9. Call for Canadian resident to re-research SPI banking possibilities
in Canada

Deputy Treasurer Branden Robinson requested that a Canadian member look
into opening a bank account in Canada for Canadian operations.

Branden summarised the reasons in two basic problems:

First, it is difficult to make disbursements to Canadians because of the
lengthly cheque clearing time.

Second, Canadians have some difficulty making donations to SPI as they
must, at present, be made in US funds.

Drew Scott Daniels of Manitoba and David Graham of Ontario volunteered to
research Canadian banking options.


10. Call for volunteer to moderate SPI mailing lists

Branden Robinson complained about the volume of spam to SPI's public
mailing lists and asked if we could have the lists be moderated.

Several ideas were put forward:

- - Making subscribers the only people able to post to lists was rejected
because the board list receives much of its traffic from non-subscribed

- - A moderator could be assigned to the lists, however finding someone to
volunteer could be difficult.

- - Only allowing PGP signed mail would reject messages from some people,
such as legal adivors.

- - Spamassassin or another spam-fighting mechanism is to be considered

The matter was deferred to the spi-general mailing list for further


11. Web site maintenance

David Graham asked to find out who has access to update the website and is
willing to make the many updates needed.

Benjamin Mako Hill volunteered to do the updates needed.


12. Project support request

David Graham stated that OpenC++ through Grzegorz Jakacki had sent a
request to join SPI.

At the time of the meeting, noone had done any research into OpenC++ and
the matter was deferred to the November meeting, with all board members
asked to look into the project where possible.


13. Next meeting

Due to the American election on November 2nd, 2004, with 6 of 9 board
members being from the United States, the meeting will be deferred until
November 9th at 1900 UTC.


14. Extra issues

Branden Robinson advised that he had not as yet received a reply from the
Indiana Attorney General in regards to our response to a complaint from
earlier in the year.

The meeting closed at 19:53 UTC.


Appendix A: Current Board Membership

Date elected Name Role
[2003-03-11] John Goerzen President
[2003-03-11] Benjamin Mako Hill Vice President
[2003-11-29] David Graham Secretary
[2004-02-20] Jimmy Kaplowitz Treasurer
[2004-07-29] Bdale Garbee
[2004-07-29] Branden Robinson
[2003-11-29] Ian Jackson
[2003-03-11] Bruce Perens
[2003-11-29] Martin "Joey" Schulze


Appendix B: Approved Resolutions

Resolution 2004-10-04.jrk.1: Begin Banking with FirstIB
- -------------------------------------------------------

WHEREAS SPI has found its current banking relationship with American
Express Centurion Bank to be unsatisfactory;

WHEREAS the Treasurer of SPI has investigated multiple alternative
banking options and concluded that SPI should move its checking accounts
to the First Internet Bank of Indiana (henceforth "FirstIB");

WHEREAS the Treasurer has authority under SPI bylaws to proceed without
further approval, but is required under FirstIB's application procedures
to obtain a formal resolution of the Board:

SPI's Board of Directors HEREBY RESOLVES THAT:

1. The Treasurer, Deputy Treasurer, Secretary, and President are
directed to work together as necessary to complete and submit to FirstIB
all application forms necessary to open a business banking account
relationship with FirstIB, as directed on the FirstIB website, including
the main business account application form and the Corporate Resolution

2. The Board of Directors hereby resolves those specific resolutions
that are listed in the "RESOLUTIONS" section of the FirstIB Corporate
Resolution form as of October 4, 2004, which are required to open a
business account with FirstIB, which are incorporated herein by
reference, and which will be appended to the published text of this
resolution once it has been approved by the Board;

3. The initial authorized signers for the account shall be the
Treasurer, Deputy Treasurer, and President;

4. The Corporate Resolution form shall be filled out such that power #1
(all listed powers) is granted to the Treasurer, requiring one
signature, and such that power #3 (check-signing and other withdrawals)
is granted to the Deputy Treasurer and to the President, again requiring
one signature; and

5. The Treasurer may authorize without further Board approval the
purchase and provision to FirstIB of such government certificates as may
be required by FirstIB to complete the application process, including
but not limited to a certified copy of our articles of incorporation
and/or a certificate of good standing, although no such requirement is
anticipated as of the passing of this resolution.

- ----------------------------------------------------

Resolution 2004-10-05.bmh.1: Permanent Legal Address
- ----------------------------------------------------

1. New York State requires corporations to appoint a registered agent in
the state where the company is formed. The registered agent is
responsible for receiving important legal and tax documents
including: notice of litigation (service of process), franchise tax
forms and annual report forms.

2. SPI's information on file with the State of New York is currently out
of date and must be updated immediately. Rather than use the address
of a board member living in New York State, the board would be well
served to look for a permanent solution not dependent on any single


3. The Board authorizes Benjamin Mako Hill to hire Corporation Services
Company, Business Filings or another suitable corporation, at
Hill's discretion, to provide a registered office in the State of New
York for the next calendar year.

4. Additionally, the Board authorizes an amendment or restatement of
SPI's certificate of incorporation recognizing:

1. The change in the location of the Company's registered office to the address designated by the provider of registered office services;
2. The appointment of CSC or Business Filings as a registered agent of SPI;
3. The change in the post office address to which the Secretary of State of the State of New York shall mail process served on the Secretary of
State to an address designated by the provider of registered agent services.

5. Hill is further authorized to incur expenses related to the
acquisition of these services of up to USD 200 for the next year
which will be reimbursed by SPI.


Appendix C: First Internet Bank Corporate Resolution

By: First Internet Bank of Indiana 7820 Innovation Blvd., Suite 210
Indianapolis, IN 46278 Referred to in this document as "Financial
Institution" Referred to in this document as "Corporation"

I, ______________________________________________, certify that I am
Secretary (clerk) of the above named corporation organized under the laws
of __________________________________, Federal Employer I.D. Number
__________________________, engaged in business under the trade name of
_______________________________________________________, and that the
resolutions on this document are a correct copy of the resolutions adopted
at a meeting of the Board of Directors of the Corporation duly and
properly called on _____________________________________________(date).
These resolutions appear in the minutes of this meeting and have not been
rescinded or modified. AGENTS Any agent listed below, subject to any
written limitations, is authorized to exercise the powers granted as
indicated below: Name and title or Position Signature Facismile Signature
(if used)

A. ________________________________________ B.
________________________________________ C.
_______________________________________ D.
_______________________________________ E.
________________________________________ F.

X _____________________________________ X
_____________________________________ X
_____________________________________ X
X _____________________________________ X

X ________________________________ X ________________________________ X
________________________________ X ________________________________ X
________________________________ X ________________________________

POWERS GRANTED (Attach one or more Agents to each power by placing the
letter corresponding to their name in the area before each power.
Following each power indicate the number of Agent signatures required to
exercise the power.) Indicate A, B, C, D, E, and/or F _____________
_____________ _____________ _____________
_____________ Description of Power (1) Exercise all of the powers listed
in this resolution. (2) Open any deposit or share account(s) in the name
of the Corporation. (3) Endorse checks and orders for the payment of money
or otherwise withdraw or transfer funds on deposit with this Financial
Institution. (4) Borrow money on behalf and in the name of the
Corporation, sign, execute and deliver promissory notes or other evidences
of indebtedness. (5) Endorse, assign, transfer, mortgage or pledge bills
receivable, warehouse receipts, bills of lading, stocks, bonds, real
estate or other property now owned or hereafter owned or acquired by the
Corporation as security for sums borrowed, and to discount the same,
unconditionally guarantee payment of all bills received, negotiated or
discounted and
to waive demand, presentment, protest, notice of protest and notice of
non-payment. (6)
LIMITATIONS OF POWERS The following are the Corporation's express
limitations on the powers granted under this resolution. Indicate number
of signatures required _______________ _______________ _______________
_______________ _______________



EFFECT ON PREVIOUS RESOLUTIONS This resolutions supersedes resolution
dated ______________. If not completed, all resolutions remain in effect.
CERTIFICATION OF AUTHORITY I further certify that the Board of Directors
of the Corporation has, and at the time of adoption of this resolution
had, full power and lawful authority to adopt the foregoing resolutions
and to confer the powers granted to the persons named who have full power
and lawful authority to exercise the same. (Apply seal below where
appropriate.) If checked, the Corporation is a non-profit corporation. In
Witness Whereof, I have subscribed my name to this document and affixed
the seal of the Corporation on
___________________________________________________ (date).
___________________________________ Attest by One Other Officer
___________________________________ Secretary

^L RESOLUTIONS The Corporation named on this resolution resolves that, (1)
The Financial Institution is designated as a depository for the funds of
the Corporation and to provide other financial accommodations indicated in
this resolution. (2) This resolution shall continue to have effect until
express written notice of its rescission or modification has been received
and recorded by the Financial Institution. Any and all prior resolutions
adopted by the Board of Directors of the Corporation and certified to the
Financial Institution as governing the operation of this corporations
account(s), are in full force and effect until the Financial Institution
receives and acknowledges an express written notice of its revocation,
modification or replacement. Any revocation, modification or replacement
of a resolution must be accompanied by documentation, satisfactory to the
Financial Institution, establishing the authority for the changes. (3) The
signature of an Agent on this resolution is conclusive evidence of their
authority to act on behalf of the Corporation. Any Agent, so long as they
act in a representative capacity as agents of the Corporation, is
authorized to make any and all other contracts, agreements, stipulations
and orders which they may deem advisable for the effective exercise of the
powers indicated on page one, from time to time with the Financial
Institution, subject to any restrictions on this resolution or otherwise
agreed to in writing. (4) All transactions, if any, with respect to any
deposits, withdrawals, rediscounts and borrowings by or on behalf of the
Corporation with the Financial Institution prior to the adoption of this
resolution are hereby ratified, approved and confirmed. (5) The
Corporation agrees to the terms and conditions of any account agreement,
properly opened by any Agent of the Corporation. The Corporation
authorizes the Financial Institution, at any time, to charge the
Corporation for all checks, drafts, or other orders, for the payment of
money, that are drawn on the Financial Institution, so long as they
contain the required number of signatures for this purpose. (6) The
Corporation acknowledges and agrees that the Financial Institution may
furnish at its discretion automated access devices to Agents of the
Corporation to facilitate those powers authorized by this resolution or
other resolutions in effect at the time of issuance. The term "automated
access device" includes, but is not limited to, credit cards, automated
teller machines (ATM), and debit cards. (7) The Corporation acknowledges
and agrees that the Financial Institution may rely on alternative
signature and verification codes issued to or obtained from the Agent
named on this resolution. The term "alternative signature and verification
codes" includes, but is not limited to, facsimile signatures on file with
the Financial Institution, personal identification numbers (PIN), and
digital signatures. If a facsimile signature specimen has been provided on
this resolution, (or that are filed separately by the Corporation with the
Financial Institution from time to time) the Financial Institution is
authorized to treat the facsimile signature as the signature of the
Agent(s) regardless of by whom or by what means the facsimile signature
may have been affixed so long as it resembles the facsimile signature on
file. The Corporation authorizes each Agent to have custody of the
Corporation's private key used to create a digital signature and to
request issuance of a certificate listing the corresponding public key.
The Financial Institution shall have no responsibility or liability for
unauthorized use of alternative signature and verification codes unless
otherwise agreed in writing.

FOR FINANCIAL INSTITUTION USE ONLY Acknowledged and received on
_______________ (date) by ___________ (initials) Comments: This resolution
is superseded by resolution dated ______________.


Appendix D: Meeting Log

00:22 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*
00:28 <CosmicRay> [item 1, opening] Today's Software in the Public Interest meeting is called to order.
00:31 <CosmicRay> Today's agenda and any pending resolutions are listed at http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/
00:34 <Diziet> Oh, yes, therre's that URL.
00:36 <Hydroxide> Diziet: and they obviously can't be as bad as PayPal because they are a regulated bank and PayPal is not
00:36 <CosmicRay> [item 2, roll call] Board members, please state your name for the record. I note for the record that no regrets are on file.
00:41 <CosmicRay> Non-board members that wish to be noted in the record may /msg cdlu with their full real name.
00:42 <cdlu> David Graham
00:43 <CosmicRay> With 9 board members, 6 must be present to meet quorum.
00:46 <CosmicRay> John Goerzen
00:48 <Hydroxide> Jimmy Kaplowitz
01:01 <bdale> Bdale Garbee
01:06 <mako> Benjamin Mako Hill
01:09 <cdlu> 5...
01:10 <Diziet> Ian Jackson
01:32 <CosmicRay> bruce?
01:38 <cdlu> Joey?
01:48 <mako> Joey is here
02:03 <CosmicRay> well we are quorate already at any rate. Hopefully they will show up. Let's move on
02:12 <CosmicRay> [item 3, president's update] Most of the items that have come up in the last month will be discussed later on in the meeting as part of other discussions.
02:17 <CosmicRay> Aside from that, I will be working in the coming month to establish a web area for "to do" items, reports, etc. similar to http://www.spi-inc/secretary/
02:29 <CosmicRay> it could be www.spi-inc.org/president/ or some such
02:34 <BrucePerens> Bruce Perens
02:45 <CosmicRay> [item 4, treasurer's report] Jimmy, you have the floor.
03:06 <Hydroxide> OK. The main item I have is the search for a new bank account to replace AmEx Centurion Bank
03:30 <Hydroxide> for those who don't know, Branden and I decided to allow AmEx to close our account instead of upgrading to their new system, since we were unsatisfied with their service
03:33 <Diziet> I can't C&P from the FIB resolution but it says we agree to the account conditions.
03:52 <Diziet> Does that mean we have no working bank account atm ?
04:12 <Diziet> (Sounds like a sensible decision to me, though.)
04:15 <Hydroxide> Diziet: right. (well, we have the investment account with AmEx financial advisors)
04:25 <Diziet> Right.
04:31 <Hydroxide> Diziet: the money that was in the checking accounts should now be in checks in branden's possession.
04:43 <Hydroxide> if not yet, then soon.
05:02 <Hydroxide> in any case, I compared multiple different banks, primarily Fleet, Bank of America, and FirstIB
05:02 <mako> so we're in a position to not to much
05:17 <mako> fleet and boa are the same now :)
05:25 <cdlu> mako, have they now merged?
05:30 <Hydroxide> they are in the process of merging
05:31 <mako> (boa bought fleet a couple months ago)
05:36 <Hydroxide> it's not finished yet
05:44 <Hydroxide> and there are waay too many questions surrounding the merger
05:47 <CosmicRay> the idea being, btw, that these banks can be interacted with from anywhere in the us
05:53 <mako> yes
06:08 <Hydroxide> fleet's deal is much better than boa's, but it's not clear what we would end up with after the merger, especially for any accounts that only get opened post-merger
06:11 <mako> as of last week i can deposit into my BoA account in seattle from nyc
06:25 <Hydroxide> I ended up getting bounced back and forth between multiple phone reps of both institutions
06:30 <Hydroxide> seems like too much hassle
06:34 <mako> alright
06:56 <Hydroxide> FirstIB has provided good service to both Branden and John, so we have reason to believe they will be worthwhile
07:14 <Hydroxide> Also, they have a decent nonprofit deal, which is basically their normal business checking account minus the monthly fee
07:19 <Diziet> That's fine. I still can't find all the right small print, and I have some comments on the bits I can find ...
07:22 <mako> i do all of my prsonal banking by mail anyway, so i don't see this as a major problem
07:29 <LabARP> Historically, I have always regretted every occasion when I got involved with BOA. For different reasons, not at the same branch, etc etc. Purely on that basis, I'd recommend anybody else.
07:32 <CosmicRay> Diziet: can we save that for the discussion of the resolution?
07:35 <Diziet> Yes.
07:45 * dieman notes he also does all his banking by mail and its 'just fine'
07:54 <Hydroxide> ok, well I think the next thing is the resolution, so let's proceed to that
08:03 <CosmicRay> ok, let's move on
08:06 <Hydroxide> I need the resolution to be able to move forward, due to FirstIB's rules not ours
08:07 <mako> it's clear taht this needs to get fixed ASAP
08:13 <bdale> yes
08:14 <CosmicRay> [item 5, outstanding minutes] David has posted minutes from September 7, 2004. Is there any discussion?
08:23 <CosmicRay> we'll be there in a minute, hydroxide
08:32 <CosmicRay> I'm ready to vote on the minutse
08:41 * mako missed that meeting so can't comment
08:41 <Hydroxide> *nod*
08:43 <Diziet> I have no problem with the minutes.
08:49 <bdale> vote
08:49 <CosmicRay> ok, the vote is on the 9/7 minutes
08:51 <CosmicRay> !vote start
08:51 <bolt> Starting a new vote
08:53 <Diziet> !vote yes
08:53 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Diziet
08:55 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
08:55 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
08:56 <bdale> !vote yes
08:56 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
08:56 <BrucePerens> !vote yes
08:56 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrucePerens
09:03 <mako> !vote abstain
09:03 <bolt> Noted abstain vote from mako
09:04 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
09:04 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
09:14 <cdlu> !vote yes
09:14 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
09:24 <CosmicRay> Joey?
09:36 <cdlu> cosmicray: *shrug*, it passed.
09:40 <CosmicRay> well I guess that'll be it for this vote.
09:42 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
09:42 <bolt> vote result: yes. 6 yes votes, 0 no votes and 1 abstentions
09:52 <CosmicRay> [item 6, banking relationship] We have resolution 2004-10-04.jrk.1, the text of which is in the agenda at http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/.
09:55 <JoeySPI> !vote yes
09:55 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JoeySPI
09:58 <Diziet> So, reading the resolution page 2, I have two main comments: firstly, item 5, which is about account agreement terms. Where are these terms and can we review them please ? Secondly, item 7 last sentence is worrying - can we avoid them `issuing' us with those kinds of things ?
09:59 <cdlu> !vote stop
09:59 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 1 abstentions
10:20 <Diziet> (My para numbers are from http://www.firstib.com/apply/pdf/corpdepapp.pdf)
10:37 <Diziet> Also, we should definitely take copies of those PDFs so we have a record of what we agreed to.
10:52 <Hydroxide> Diziet: well, we have no need to actually retain a copy of any digital signatures that they give us
11:02 <Hydroxide> Diziet: and if we don't retain them, we don't have any liability
11:09 <Hydroxide> Diziet: because we can't have let them get lost
11:14 <Diziet> hy: But if FIB leak the private key to their teller they are not liable for the unauthorised use.
11:54 <Diziet> As in, their para 7 allows them to issue us with a keypair, or a PIN, and then if the private key or the pin is abused it's our loss even if we burned it.
11:58 <Hydroxide> Diziet: I'm guessing that's the sort of liability that banks can't just give away ... keep in mind, they are a regulated bank (unlike PayPal), and that means they can't be quite as shady as nonregulated banks
12:47 <mako> FWIW, i'm more than trust the treasurer and dep treasurer to choose a bank with acceptable terms of service
12:56 <mako> remove that first "more than"
13:10 <Diziet> hy: So basically you're saying the terms in the agreement aren't what we're being asked to agree to ?
13:37 <CosmicRay> Diziet: that means that legally we cannot compel them to have liability for such use by itself. However, it doesn't mean that they won't accept liability, as they may be forced to under US law anyway
13:46 <Diziet> After being hassled endlessly about PayPal by people who should know better I don't trust anyone else to read Ts and Cs and care about the contents.
14:09 <Diziet> cr: That's nice. I am not prepared to vote for a resolution that appears to open us up to that liability.
14:22 * bdale is studying them, but like most Ts and Cs, is finding his eyes crossing
14:25 <Diziet> If you can convince me that we aren't liable, then fine.
14:26 <CosmicRay> Diziet: what makes you think this would be different at any other bank?
14:40 <bdale> CosmicRay: he's not accustomed to dealing with US banks
14:48 <Hydroxide> Diziet: we are being asked to agree to the resolutions. One of them says we agree to terms for accounts that we open, but pretty much every legitimate financial institution in the US (which does not include PayPal) they always give you 30 days or so to review things before they are binding
14:51 <CosmicRay> Diziet: or that we will necessarily use the things contemplated in that clause?
14:56 <Diziet> cr: I have no idea. I know nothing about the banking market. But as a board member it is my responsibility to read this kind of legal thing and check that it's not egregious.
15:09 <Hydroxide> s/they always/always/
15:27 <slef> Diziet: compare it to the current account's liabilities and vote only for reductions or status quo.
15:37 <CosmicRay> Diziet: I'm saying it's not egregious, if for no other reason than every bank you approach in the US will have a clause like that
15:53 <slef> s/only//
16:17 <slef> Hydroxide: here, that is a consumer credit act measure. Does it apply to corporations in the US?
16:28 <Diziet> cr: How about we write something into the `limitations' section which limits the power of the agents to accept and use `alternative signature and verification codes' ?
16:34 <Hydroxide> slef: I am not sure what you are referring to.
16:51 <slef> Hydroxide: The 30 days to review. Does it apply to SPI and this account?
16:56 <Diziet> We aren't proposing to use pins or cash machines or online banking, are we ?
17:08 <Hydroxide> Diziet: some of that we definitely are. online banking, at least
17:09 <mako> Hydroxide, CosmicRay, Overfiend: i'm willing to let you guys take a look a look at this.. consult with greg if you need to and make a decision that you think is responsible. if you back out of this because it looks like a sour deal, that's fine and we can get a new resolution at a better place, if it's good, we can deal with that
17:53 <Diziet> hy: I think the online banking is a problem. FIB deny all responsibility for fraudulent transactions initiated via the online facility.
17:57 <Hydroxide> Diziet: and if we want to increase the security of our account by requiring an additional password from the bank phone reps, we should be allowed to do that
18:24 <CosmicRay> Diziet: Again, what else could they do?
18:44 <CosmicRay> Diziet: Otherwise, somebody could call them up after buying a new plasma TV, and say "oh, that transfer was fraudulent"
19:00 <cdlu> mako, this resolution is binding by its nature
19:01 <CosmicRay> Diziet: it doesn't mean that they won't ever get money back if fraud happens
19:03 <Diziet> That would be easy to spot, just follow the TV.
19:11 <cdlu> mako, passed, as worded, it obligates us to open an accont with firstib
19:14 <Overfiend> back
19:17 <cdlu> wb
19:20 <Hydroxide> mako: I've heard good things about FirstIB from CosmicRay and Overfiend, _and_ the resolutions don't look any different from what I expect in a corporate banking resolution
19:22 <Overfiend> Branden Robinson, present
19:22 <Diziet> Well, if FIBs webshite leaks our password we are fully liable AFAICT.
19:30 <Overfiend> no wireless at the doctor's office, had to find a Panera Bread
19:41 <Diziet> I wouldn't mind if the account only had smallish amounts of money in it.
19:47 <Diziet> Then our risk would be limited.
19:49 <CosmicRay> Diziet: no, in that case they would be liable for damages under negligence law
19:58 <Hydroxide> Diziet: I think there are definitely rules requiring banks to be liable if it's their fault that the money was lost
20:00 <Overfiend> AFAIK, the intention is not to dump all the AmEx Fin Adv cash in there
20:08 <CosmicRay> Diziet: actually, that is the case; most of our money is with the AmEx Financial Advisors
20:09 <Overfiend> so is this really a point we need to fight about?
20:26 <Diziet> cr: So what is the max. amount of money we're expecting to have in it ?
20:30 <Overfiend> AmEx Fin Adv != AmEx Centurion Bank, now known as American Express Bank FSB
21:03 <Diziet> Internet banking for large amounts gives me the willies, and I have a PhD in computer security.
21:05 <Overfiend> we'll probably open an account with about $4200 in it.
21:08 <CosmicRay> what did we have in the Centurion Bank -- some $5000 out of $20,000 that we hold?
21:18 <Overfiend> the exact figure is on purcel
21:24 <Hydroxide> Diziet: I'm quite certain that if it's the bank's fault that money got leaked then they will be required to return it, and if they don't then FDIC probably will
21:25 <mako> i'm happy with that
21:28 <Overfiend> +238 dollars from the 1296789 account
21:29 <Diziet> Can we arrange to reduce that ? I think $5000 of risk is about bearable. More is a problem.
21:41 <Overfiend> reduce it? It's already below USD 5000
21:46 <CosmicRay> Exactly. What hydroxide said.
21:50 <Overfiend> or will be, once we have checks to deposit.
21:55 <Diziet> And what if some disgruntled DD sneaks a virus onto the Treasurer's machine and sends the money to Nigeria ?
22:13 <Overfiend> what if President Bush starts a nuclear war?
22:15 <CosmicRay> what if some disgruntled DD becomes treasurer?
22:15 <bdale> Diziet: my take on this is that Ts and Cs like this are customary, that they need to be taken within the context of the legal system in which the financial institution operates, and there probably isn't enough case history in the legal system to definitely determine in advance what happens if we end up in court with the bank someday
22:23 <Diziet> But we're going to be depositing into it on an ongoing basis, right ? So $4200 is a bit high.
22:24 <Hydroxide> Diziet: I never leave my computer logged into financial institutions when I am not actively using those
22:34 <Diziet> bdale: Lovely.,
22:37 <Overfiend> Hydroxide: FIB's website logs you out after 10 idle minutes.
22:41 <Diziet> s/\,/
22:48 <Hydroxide> Overfiend: yeah, things like that are common too
22:59 <Diziet> hy: Yes, but you still trust (in the NSA sense) every DD and pretty much everyone any DD trusts ...
23:04 <CosmicRay> Diziet: FirstIB would likely catch the Nigeria situation before it happens and call us
23:07 <dieman> now is this liaility thing about using a check payment system, or merely using the online banking part to viewing balance?
23:10 <Diziet> I agree that mitigating the risk is possible and good.
23:13 <CosmicRay> Diziet: wire transfers have to be processed by humans in the US
23:15 <JoeySPI> Could we reduce the discussion a bit and try to finish the meeting? There was once a resolution not to discuss things endlessly during meetings...
23:27 <Overfiend> dieman: I think we *should* use the bill payment/check writing feature
23:27 <Diziet> joey: I agree, but this one seems urgent.
23:30 <Hydroxide> yeah, that resolution came frim Diziet actually
23:38 <Overfiend> dieman: it will enable us to handle things much more swiftly
23:39 <Diziet> As in it's urgent that we get a bank account.
23:39 <cdlu> Joey, that resolution only applies if Diziet doesn't want to have a discussion.
23:41 <JoeySPI> If we're not happy with this, maybe the options need to be provided via mail comprehensively.
23:43 <dieman> for a datapoint, the bank I use limits my liability to $50 if i tell them within 2 days, $500 if it is within 60 days
23:51 <Diziet> joey: I would prefer that.
23:51 <dieman> past 60 days i am possibly fully liable
23:55 <Overfiend> you sure that's not just for a credit card, dieman?
24:00 <dieman> Overfiend: no
24:03 <Overfiend> ok
24:03 <mako> i'm willing to spend time here since we *need* to handle this
24:12 <Diziet> But can we wait another month with no bank account ?
24:12 <dieman> Overfiend: this is for the the "USAA Web BillPay"
24:24 <Overfiend> please note, we don't have the checks from AmEx yet. Until we get those, we're out almost 5000 right now.
24:30 <Overfiend> dollars that is
24:32 <bdale> dieman: that probably falls under debit card rules
24:35 <CosmicRay> I'm not convinced that we could find a bank in the United States that meets our needs and lacks the claues that have Diziet concerned.
24:37 <Diziet> It would have been much better if the URL with Ts and Cs had been posted a week ago ...
24:47 <cdlu> Overfiend, could you reduce this down to simple pros/cons? I think we're getting a little bit scattered.
24:47 <dieman> Overfiend: https://ww4.usaa.com/pdf/DAD_SvcFeeSch.pdf
24:54 <bdale> Diziet: agreed
24:55 <dieman> bdale: dono, they send out honest to god checks
25:01 <dieman> bdale: if they can't setup an ACH
25:08 <Overfiend> cdlu: I find it difficult to rebut Diziet's points. What he asserts is not outside the realm of possibility.
25:14 <Hydroxide> Overfiend: you do expect to get the checks before the next meeting, though, right?
25:16 <dieman> bdale: for debit cards my liablilty is $0
25:20 <dieman> bdale: i've tested that one.
25:22 <Overfiend> All I can say is that I've been using FIB for 4 years and I've never once been defrauded.
25:26 <Diziet> ov: Right.
25:29 <Overfiend> I realize anecdotes are worthless.
25:29 <dieman> bdale: (number got stolen once)
25:51 <Diziet> So I would be happy to agree if the Treasurer agrees to keep the balance below $5K except briefly for exceptional transfers.
25:57 <Overfiend> Hydroxide: I expected to have them by NOW
26:06 <Overfiend> I mean, they were suppsoed to have shut down the accts on 24 Sep.
26:12 <Overfiend> That's plenty of time to cut a check and mail it.
26:17 <Overfiend> But no dice as of 4 Oct.
26:32 <Overfiend> They appear to move about as slowly as we do. :-P
26:39 <mako> i'm happy to vote on it with or without the 5k restriction
26:42 <Overfiend> Which makes me glad we decided not to accept their offer :-P
26:45 <Diziet> Would that be a practical restriction ?
26:46 <dieman> Overfiend: for ACH it appears they give me $50 liablity and 60 days.
26:54 <Hydroxide> Diziet: so what would I need to do if we have $4200 in the account and someone makes a $1000 donation?
27:08 <cdlu> Overfiend, companies are never in a hurry to give up money
27:17 <Diziet> Pay in the donation cheque and make an outbound transfer to the investment account.
27:19 <Overfiend> Hydroxide: I suggest: consult with the President, maybe Deputy T, and DPL
27:21 <bdale> Hydroxide: how easy is it going to be for you to move money back and forth to the other account?
27:24 <mako> but i appreciate the concern behind Diziet's position and think it should be taken into account by the treasurers
27:36 <Diziet> Do we often move more than a handful of K ?
27:37 <Overfiend> Hydroxide: ensure the DPL doesn't have any immediate need for a large amount of money
27:43 <Overfiend> Diziet: no
27:55 <Overfiend> USD 5000 sounds like a reasonable high-water mark to me
28:19 <Hydroxide> well, to put money in the investment account I'd either need to write a check and mail it (or use the online payment system
28:20 <cdlu> is there a minimum balance?
28:20 <Diziet> It just means that if we need to write a bigger cheque it involves more faff.
28:23 <Hydroxide> )
28:26 <Hydroxide> cdlu: no, not for nonprofits
28:27 <Diziet> hy: Quite so.
28:30 <cdlu> Hydroxide, ok
29:00 <Overfiend> IIRC, the largest check I ever wrote was to Kenshi Muto for his and Goto Masanori's DebConf reimbursement
29:04 <Overfiend> that was USD 2800
29:07 <bdale> I routinely move money between financial institutions using online access. Typical transaction times are 24-48 hours, and I consider that an essential ability these days.
29:11 <Diziet> I take it from no-one disagreeing that everyone thinks we _have_ to do this now, then ? 'cos this IRC discussion is pretty awful for this kind of thing and we're boring everyone I'm sure.
29:14 <cdlu> are we ready to vote on the understanding that you will do your best to keep the balance <$5000?
29:29 <Overfiend> so we can ask tbm if he inteds to start authorizing $10,000 disbursements any time soon :)
29:29 <mako> cdlu: yes
29:34 <CosmicRay> OK, good.
29:35 <cdlu> ok, Mr. President?
29:37 <Hydroxide> well, I don't want to restrict what I can do in unexpected circumstances, but I will say I expect the account to be under $5000 most of the time. sound reasonable?
29:46 <CosmicRay> This vote is on 2004-10-04.jrk.1, with that understanding.
29:47 <bdale> Overfiend: the bigger issue is whether anyone is going to start actively soliciting funds for any of our member projects
29:48 <CosmicRay> !vote start
29:48 <bolt> Starting a new vote
29:49 <Diziet> hy: That's fine.
29:50 <cdlu> !vote yes
29:50 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
29:51 <Diziet> !vote yes
29:51 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Diziet
29:54 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
29:54 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
29:56 <Overfiend> !vote yes
29:56 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Overfiend
29:58 <mako> !vote yes
29:58 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
30:00 <BrucePerens> !vote yes
30:00 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrucePerens
30:03 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
30:03 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
30:12 <Overfiend> bdale: I still think we need a bit more housecleaning done before we do that
30:19 <Overfiend> but we're getting better -- gradually
30:19 <cdlu> 8.. missing Joey
30:21 <CosmicRay> whom are we missing?
30:25 <bdale> so we are voting on the resolution as worded?
30:32 <cdlu> oh and bdale
30:34 <cdlu> yes
30:37 <Overfiend> JoeySPI: we've stopped talking, it's time for YOUR ASS TO VOTE
30:41 <Diziet> No, with the understanding stated by Hy above.
30:45 <Hydroxide> I would also like us to decide to discuss the $5000 soft cap at the next meeting once we know the exact terms of service for the bank
30:48 <CosmicRay> bdale: with the understanding that hydroxide will try to keep balances below $5k
30:53 <cdlu> bdale, with the non-binding understanding that it will be kept under $5000 where possible (balance0
30:54 <Diziet> <Hydroxide> well, I don't want to restrict what I can do in unexpected circumstances, but I will say I expect the account to be under $5000 most of the time. sound reasonable?
30:57 <Overfiend> Hydroxide: sure, I second that
31:06 <JoeySPI> !vote yes
31:06 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JoeySPI
31:09 <bdale> I'm unhappy about imposing that restriction on our treasurer. I'm willing to vote yes though.
31:12 <bdale> !vote yes
31:12 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
31:15 <cdlu> !vote stop
31:15 <bolt> vote result: yes. 9 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
31:16 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
31:16 <bolt> vote result: yes. 9 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
31:20 <CosmicRay> ok.
31:20 <Hydroxide> well, let's note:
31:21 <Diziet> hy: That's fine. Can we do it by email if possible so we can avoid another long meeting ?
31:23 <cdlu> bdale, the restriction isn't a requirement, it's a strong recommendation
31:23 <Overfiend> bdale: if Jimmy and I feel the pinch, we'll bitch
31:37 <CosmicRay> can we move on?
31:41 <cdlu> yes
31:43 <CosmicRay> [item 7, legal address] We have resolution 2004-10-04.bmh.1, the text of which is in the agenda at http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/.
31:48 <CosmicRay> Is there any discussion on this item?
31:49 <bdale> cdlu: I consider it worthless, but we don't need to dwell on it.
31:56 <Hydroxide> I didn't say "I will always endeavor to keep it under $5k", I said "I want to be able to deal with unexpected circumstances, but it will probably be under $5k most of the time"
32:06 <CosmicRay> this btw is pretty much essential for us
32:08 <cdlu> Hydroxide, dead horse. stop beating./
32:13 <Hydroxide> *nod*
32:17 <Overfiend> worthless?
32:20 <CosmicRay> yes, we can revisit this whenever necessary.
32:22 <Overfiend> bdale: uh, not worthless
32:29 <mako> next item, next itme
32:30 <cdlu> Overfiend, dead horse. stop beating. :)
32:33 <Overfiend> we don't want to get in dutch with the New York State...
32:42 <Overfiend> oh, did bdale mean the other thing? :)
32:44 <mako> new york state
32:53 <cdlu> CosmicRay, I am prepared to vote on mako's resolution 2004-10-05.1
32:54 <CosmicRay> whatever he meant, let's move on the NY state :-)
32:57 <CosmicRay> me too
33:02 * Overfiend seconds the motion on the floor
33:02 <CosmicRay> let's do it.
33:03 <Diziet> I'm having some trouble finding the text again.
33:03 <mako> i'm here.. so is spi. but no where real. lets fix taht
33:05 <CosmicRay> !vote start
33:05 <bolt> Starting a new vote
33:08 <cdlu> Diziet: see /topic
33:10 <Overfiend> !vote yes
33:10 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Overfiend
33:13 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
33:13 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
33:14 <cdlu> !vote yes
33:14 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
33:14 <mako> !vote yes
33:14 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
33:20 <Diziet> !vote no
33:20 <bolt> Noted no vote from Diziet
33:23 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
33:23 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
33:27 <JoeySPI> I don't see2004-10-05.1
33:29 <BrucePerens> !vote yes
33:29 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrucePerens
33:34 <Overfiend> Diziet has a PhD in computer security, but can't find a URL in the topic. With both hands and a flashlight :-P
33:35 <cdlu> Resolution 2004-10-05.bmh.1: Permanent Legal Address
33:39 <JoeySPI> is that an aliasa for 2004-10-04.1?
33:48 <bdale> !vote yes
33:48 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
33:49 <JoeySPI> Ah, it changed
33:49 <Diziet> The item 2004-10-05.bmh.1 has no link on the website AFAICT.
33:59 <cdlu> Joey, see http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/ under Resolution 2004-10-05.bmh.1: Permanent Legal Address
34:01 * Overfiend brings his usual constructive perspective ;-)
34:04 <JoeySPI> !vote yes
34:04 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JoeySPI
34:05 <mako> it's in the page here: http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/
34:09 <CosmicRay> ok. has everyone voted?
34:11 <Hydroxide> Diziet: indeed, it's not a link, but it's on the agenda page
34:12 <Diziet> Oh, it's around the bottom.
34:15 <cdlu> Diziet, it hasn't been passed yet, so of course it's not up yet.
34:39 <CosmicRay> Diziet: yes, that's why I sed "with text in the agenda at" about 5 minutes ago :-)
34:42 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
34:42 <bolt> vote result: yes. 8 yes votes, 1 no votes and 0 abstentions
34:46 <slef> ytpo in bmh.1 "T IS RESOLVED THAT,"
34:48 <Diziet> !vote yes
34:48 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Diziet
34:50 <Diziet> !vote stop
34:50 <bolt> vote result: yes. 9 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
34:50 <Hydroxide> Diziet: oh, and a 35-45 minute meeting is not my idea of "a long meeting"...
34:56 <cdlu> that's my fault
34:57 <Overfiend> Diziet is the new JoeySPI!
34:58 * cdlu fixes
35:04 <mako> slef: should be able to fix quickly
35:05 <CosmicRay> ok, 2004-10-04.bmh.1 passes.
35:11 <CosmicRay> moving on.
35:14 <Diziet> I blame my X terminal. Sorry.
35:16 <CosmicRay> [item 8, Debian logo] We have resolution 2004-10-04.bmh.2 with text in the agenda at http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/.
35:18 <JoeySPI> Overfiend: bah! :)
35:19 <mako> hold up
35:20 <cdlu> -05.bmh.1, 04.bmh.1 was updated
35:28 * Overfiend blows a kiss at JoeySPI
35:29 <cdlu> 04.bmh.2 is next though :)
35:30 <mako> it was suggested that we run this by -legal first
35:33 <mako> and then vote on it
35:37 <Overfiend> I second that.
35:38 <Diziet> Very sensible.
35:43 <mako> that's fine with me
35:46 <cdlu> mako, withdrawn?
35:47 <Overfiend> Don't bypass -legal, for they are subtle and quick to anger.
35:48 <CosmicRay> hold on.
35:54 <mako> we weren't going to bypass them
35:56 <CosmicRay> what are you seconding voting on exactly, overfiend?
36:01 <mako> the question was whether we would vote before or after
36:04 <CosmicRay> 04.bmh.2?
36:06 <bdale> has Greg looked at this?
36:08 <Overfiend> CR: I said "second" twice
36:10 <mako> bdale: yes
36:13 <bdale> k
36:19 <Overfiend> CR: first, to the NY address resolution just passed
36:20 <mako> bdale: he has been riding me on this one :)
36:32 <Overfiend> CR: next, to support mako's suggestion that we run this new license by debian-legal
36:38 * cdlu has nightmares about writing this month's minutes
36:46 <mako> ok, lets run it by them and see if there are any suggestions or changes from themn
37:02 <mako> we can approve whatever they come back with at the next meeting or on email
37:03 <cdlu> mako, so resolution 2004-10-04.bmh.2 is deferred?
37:08 <CosmicRay> ok, so 04.bmh.2 is withdrawn for today?
37:09 <Overfiend> cdlu: easy. 50% of it can be reduced to "Diziet gravely predicts the Immanentization of the Escaton"
37:09 <BrucePerens> I submitted a wording change on this yesterday. It's not ready yet.
37:15 <mako> cdlu, CosmicRay yes
37:18 <CosmicRay> ok.
37:20 <cdlu> mako, k
37:22 <Overfiend> bah. Eschaton.
37:22 <CosmicRay> then let us move on.
37:28 <CosmicRay> [item 9, Canadian banking] Branden, you have the floor.
37:29 <mako> BrucePerens: i know, but i'm pullint it for today so i'll make sure it gets in
37:36 <mako> BrucePerens: before we vote on it
37:43 <CosmicRay> or hydroxide
37:44 <Overfiend> Okay. I raise this for 2 reasons. Both are itches we might want to try to scratch.
37:45 <mako> BrucePerens: and before i run it by -legal
37:55 <BrucePerens> Overfiend, don't get escatological here :-)
38:14 <Overfiend> 1) Jeff Bailey's reimbursement is taking a geological era to process. You see, he's in .ca, and we paid him in USD.
38:31 <Overfiend> I consider it luck that his check was processed by AmEx before they putatively shut the account down
38:38 <Overfiend> AFAIK, he still doesn't have his money
38:38 <BrucePerens> CosmicRay: thanks.
38:56 <cdlu> Overfiend: it's standard for a US$ cheque to take 3 weeks to clear when deposited into a Canadian account
38:59 <Overfiend> this disbursement was made about a month ago. So, this sucks, and will likely suck for .ca disbursees in the future.
39:02 <Overfiend> 2)
39:08 <cdlu> if you get multiple cheques from the same sender they won't even hold it the second time, normally
39:18 <Overfiend> we had a potential donor howl about the difficulty of .ca donations *to* SPI
39:26 <Overfiend> and tbm seconded that howling is his capacity as DPL
39:39 <mako> heh
39:41 <Overfiend> cdlu: I think our disbursements will be scattered, though.
39:42 <Diziet> ov: Is this question ready for a decision by us ? Or is it just a trial balloon still ?
39:58 <mako> Diziet: it's a call for volunteers
40:05 <Overfiend> Diziet: I'd like to ask our registered guests and/or Board members who happen to be Canadians to research this issue.
40:05 <cdlu> Diziet, not everything in a meeting ends up in a resolution :)
40:08 <bdale> looks like a suggestion that we ask for a volunteer, which I don't understand the need to bring to the board
40:14 <cdlu> Overfiend, mlots and I are volunteering
40:17 <Overfiend> What the hell would it take to get SPI, Inc., a bank accout in .ca/
40:26 <mako> answer next month :)
40:35 <mako> or before on the list
40:37 <cdlu> he's in MB I'm in ON
40:42 <Overfiend> cdlu: do you guys want to handle this to gether and prep a proposal for next months' meeting?
40:46 <mlots> Overfiend: I've already started researching... am as we speak.
40:50 <Overfiend> Mew Brunswick?
40:51 <Diziet> I'm sick and tired of sitting here waiting while people type things while-we-wait which could have been done by email and read at 5 times the speed.
40:53 * Overfiend grins
40:56 <Diziet> Can we do this by email ? And the next one ?
40:59 <cdlu> Overfiend, in consultation with you and Hydroxide, yes. Want to know exactly what you are looking for.
41:00 <Overfiend> Diziet: so leave
41:04 <Diziet> The Board doesn't need to decide or anything.
41:10 <Overfiend> Diziet: you don't answer mail between meetings anyway :-P
41:16 <cdlu> Diziet, what OF said.
41:23 <cdlu> CosmicRay, I think Canada is covered
41:24 <mlots> Overfiend: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada... Just follow the I29 north.
41:26 <CosmicRay> ok, can we leave this at a request for volunteers, and move on?
41:31 <Overfiend> mlots: I was joking :)
41:38 <CosmicRay> to a similar item:
41:40 <CosmicRay> [item 10, SPI mailing lists] Branden, you have the floor.
41:52 <Overfiend> now that I have bashed diziet, let me emulate him
41:52 <JoeySPI> Only for clarification, why is it such a problem for an american bank to send money to a .ca bank?
42:06 <cdlu> Joey, because the US is FUBAR
42:08 <Overfiend> there's too much damn spam on the public SPI lists, particularly -board, -general, and somewhat -www
42:17 <Diziet> joey: Because North American banking systems make continental European ones look efficient and advanced.
42:21 <cdlu> Overfiend, we could restrict all lists to subscriber only
42:25 <mako> JoeySPI: unsatisifying buerocratic reasons
42:26 <bdale> JoeySPI: it's hard to fit big US dollars into those little metric dollar envelopes...
42:27 <JoeySPI> cdlu: ouch, i see.
42:30 <Overfiend> I was wondering if anyone wanted to be sucker enough to moderate them.
42:34 <Overfiend> -board would be tricky
42:39 <Overfiend> but -board is the worst by far
42:43 <Overfiend> moderating -board...hmmm
42:45 <Diziet> I was shocked recently to discover that Britain was considered to have one of the world's most advanced banking systems. Which really does explain why NA is so awful, given how bad things are here.
42:49 <Overfiend> what do outsiders use for a contact address then?
42:55 <cdlu> Overfiend, I don't like the idea of moderating -board. can we put spamassassin on purcel?
43:06 <Overfiend> cdlu: not a question for me. Wiggy?
43:10 <CosmicRay> Can we try some spamassassin/RBL tricks first?
43:11 <Overfiend> /Joy?
43:24 <CosmicRay> OK. Overfiend, how about you take this up on spi-general?
43:32 <mako> my spam filtering seems to be working pretty well for me on spi lists
43:35 <slef> I suggest trying dcc
43:35 <Overfiend> who knows, if we can put a bigger dent in the spam problem, maybe Diziet will participate more ;-)
43:37 <JoeySPI> overfiend: if somebody is willing to maintain it, the list(s) could be put on closed mode with an **active** moderator adding people to a whitelist.
43:37 <Diziet> We should run SAUCE on purcel.
43:43 <Overfiend> NO
43:43 <slef> dcc detects bulk mail
43:49 * Overfiend destroys Diziet
43:52 <slef> Diziet: what, with all the troubles on debian-uk?
43:57 * Diziet gets out from under the (now destroyed) bridge.
43:59 <LabARP> How about only permitting _signed_ mail on the lists ?
44:14 <CosmicRay> do we really need this discussion here?
44:15 <Hydroxide> Diziet: is it that thing that causes every one of my direct mails to you to bounce with an "Irritated" message because my mail server's reverse and forward DNS are different?
44:19 <JoeySPI> lap: that would deny mails from our attornies for example
44:19 <Diziet> lab: I'm working on the code for that for Debian tech ctte, but it's nontrivial. Mime awfulness.
44:21 * Overfiend launches an incursion into Diziet's Gaza Strip. CosmicRay: Yes, I'll pitch this on -general.
44:28 <Overfiend> spam discussions usually degenerate.
44:30 <CosmicRay> OK.
44:33 * Overfiend yields the floor
44:36 <CosmicRay> we'll note Overfiend's question in the minutes
44:38 <CosmicRay> let's move on
44:42 <mako> quickly :)
44:44 <slef> JoeySPI: merely hold them for moderation
44:44 <CosmicRay> [item 12, next meeting] The next regularly-scheduled meeting is November 2, 2004 at 19:00 UTC.
44:49 <CosmicRay> I note that this will be one hour earlier in local time for many due to the end of daylight saving time.
44:50 <JoeySPI> diziet: did you notice that we have such code for debian-devel-announce + debian-secrutiy-announce?
44:51 <Overfiend> election day, US
44:52 <CosmicRay> Is there any objection?
44:52 <Overfiend> bad day
44:55 <LabARP> Diziet, Joey: thx
44:56 <Overfiend> yes, me
45:01 <CosmicRay> shall we delay one week?
45:02 <cdlu> CosmicRay, you skipped a few.
45:05 <mako> it's fine with me
45:08 <Diziet> joey: It's not quite the same. I'm trying to rip some of that off, yes.
45:12 <mako> it's before the evening so before i've started r
45:14 <CosmicRay> oh oops, thanks cdlu, I'll get to them yet.
45:15 <Hydroxide> well, during november and september I will not be able to arrive at a meeting until 1925 or 1930 UTC
45:16 <mako> drinkign heavily
45:22 <cdlu> November 12 is good here
45:24 <cdlu> er
45:25 <Hydroxide> err, november and december
45:26 <cdlu> November 2
45:29 <Overfiend> I don't know when I will be able to get away from work to vote, and you can be damn sure I'm going to convert the voting booth into a Condorcet machine just so I can rank Dubya LAST
45:40 <CosmicRay> shall we say November 9 at 19:00UTC then?
45:44 <Overfiend> sounds good to me
45:45 <Hydroxide> cdlu: we should NOT hold our meeting on the US election day
45:55 <mako> Hydroxide: why?
45:56 <cdlu> Hydroxide, oh that's what's on the second
46:01 <Overfiend> in the US, Election Day is not a public holiday
46:06 <Overfiend> so people have to skip out of work just to vote
46:08 <Hydroxide> CosmicRay: letting you know I probably won't arrive until 1925 or 1930 UTC
46:10 <cdlu> Overfiend that explains your country.
46:17 <CosmicRay> OK.
46:17 <slef> Inconsiderate of US to put their elections on SPI's meeting day.
46:24 <mako> slef: seriously
46:26 <CosmicRay> November 9 at 1900 UTC.
46:27 <Overfiend> it's one of many ways in which the working classes are disenfranchised
46:28 <cdlu> CosmicRay, do you want to move November meeting to the 9th at 20:00 UTC?
46:28 <LabARP> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to vote on something that is _not_ counted using Diebold in Nov ?!
46:29 <CosmicRay> [item 11, Project Support Request] David, you have the floor
46:36 <bdale> why wouldn't we meet on a US election day?
46:38 <cdlu> with DST ending 20:00 UTC ends up the same as 19:00 UTC now
46:46 <JoeySPI> ripping some python stuff off is always a good idea...
46:46 <Overfiend> bdale: asked and answered :-P
46:48 <CosmicRay> cdlu: I think we have pretty much consensus on that now
46:53 <CosmicRay> anyway, the project support request
47:01 <cdlu> alright
47:01 <mako> either day works for me
47:06 <JoeySPI> meeting done, right?
47:07 <cdlu> no
47:09 <bdale> Overfiend: inadequately to my tastes, but again, I'll just wipe the tire tracks off my back and we can proceed.
47:11 <Overfiend> cdlu has the floor
47:13 <cdlu> We received a request from a project to support them
47:22 <JoeySPI> Oh.
47:22 <cdlu> it is the last item in the appendix to the minutes
47:25 <Overfiend> bdale: hey, I ain't driving. Just egging the driver on ;-)
47:28 <cdlu> My name is Grzegorz Jakacki, I am a team leader of OpenC++ software project
47:28 <cdlu> (opencxx.sourceforge.net). OpenC++ is a mature open-source C++ program
47:28 <cdlu> transformation framework, distributed under non-copyleft open-source
47:28 <cdlu> license.
47:29 <cdlu> ...
47:38 <Diziet> Have we done any research about these people ?
47:41 <cdlu> at this time I don't think we've done our homework into whether or not they should join
47:42 <cdlu> so
47:42 <bdale> I haven't
47:52 <cdlu> I would like to ask everyone to find out what they can, and we can address this on the list
47:52 <Overfiend> SA is still processing my mail. Is Sybian or whatever the project formerly known as Berlin?
47:57 <Diziet> I've had a quick look at the website and read the licence which is OK apart from a questionable bit about export controls.
48:00 <cdlu> preferably resulting in a decision one way or another at November's meeting
48:08 <mako> cdlu: yes
48:13 <JoeySPI> table it for the next meeting and somebody[tm] investigate it for a comprehensive mail on -board
48:14 <Diziet> cdlu: Fine by me.
48:28 <cdlu> CosmicRay, that's all I have on that
48:33 * Overfiend is not sure the words "mature" and "C++" go together, but it's not our business how member projects market themselves :)
48:35 <CosmicRay> who will be investigating it?
48:48 <Diziet> ov: `Debian, the Universal Operation System' :-).
48:51 <CosmicRay> saying "somebody" is a recipe for "nobody" around here
48:53 <Diziet> s/tion/ting
48:57 <Overfiend> well, unless they fuck with our 501(c)3
49:01 <cdlu> CosmicRay, I said everybody :)
49:05 <Overfiend> like, by endorsing US political candidates
49:06 <CosmicRay> ok
49:16 <CosmicRay> that does it for today's agenda
49:17 * Overfiend knows nothing about this project.
49:19 <CosmicRay> any last-minute items?
49:22 <cdlu> CosmicRay, there's one more item on there
49:23 <Overfiend> yes
49:25 <cdlu> 11. Web site maintenance
49:26 <Overfiend> CR: yes
49:29 <CosmicRay> oh
49:34 <CosmicRay> please go ahead
49:39 <Overfiend> you guys' numbering is disordered
49:41 <mako> WE NEED SOME
49:43 <CosmicRay> must have been added after I prepared my script
49:47 <cdlu> I want to know who both a) has access to the website, and b) is willing to update it with the hundreds of needed changes
49:57 <bdale> I'd like to request that we try to avoid adding lots of new items to the agenda in the last hour prior to a board meeting.
50:00 <Overfiend> cdlu: I have CVS access but have not used it recently.
50:04 <mako> a) yes b) yes
50:10 <Overfiend> bdale: I plead guilty
50:19 <Diziet> I think that for the next meeting I will post a reminder/announcement/thingum/ call for agenda items about 10 days for the meeting date, saying `please send your agenda items to secretary@ and spi-general@ by [7 days before]'.
50:23 <CosmicRay> cdlu: *looks at mako* you have your victim
50:30 <cdlu> bdale, I would ask ALL board members to participate between meetings. right now our between-meeting participation is truly and completely pathetic.
50:32 * slef sentences Overfiend to an eternity on debian-legal
50:38 <Diziet> Anything not received by that date should be postponed until the month after, unless it's an emergency.
50:40 * Overfiend puts the bridle and harness on mako, and hands the reins to cdlu
50:41 <cdlu> CosmicRay, ok, mako, I will be coming after you :)
50:51 <Overfiend> slef: but I might *enjoy* *that*
50:56 <CosmicRay> cdlu: is that it?
50:59 <cdlu> yes
51:05 <cdlu> CosmicRay, have we agreed then on November 9 19:00 UTC?
51:06 <CosmicRay> [item 13, adjournment] This meeting of Software in the Public Interest is adjourned.
51:09 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*
51:10 <CosmicRay> cdlu: yes
51:10 <Overfiend> I had one more item.
51:11 <Overfiend> Damn.
51:12 <cdlu> ok
51:13 <Overfiend> Oh well
51:15 <Hydroxide> Diziet: that policy change would probably require a resolution
51:15 <CosmicRay> shit
51:18 <cdlu> Overfiend, what is it?
51:18 <Overfiend> it's okay
51:19 <Diziet> cdlu: Yes, part of that is the lack of stuff to discuss ('cos it's posted late) and part of it is deadlineitis by the board members.
51:22 <Overfiend> just a status report
51:26 <CosmicRay> go ahead of
51:31 <Overfiend> I mentioned we don't have our AmEx CB checks yet.
51:33 <CosmicRay> uhm, *UNGAVEL* :-)
51:36 <Diziet> (board members including me)
51:42 <Overfiend> I mentioned in mail that we have no answer from Indiana AG CPD yet.
51:54 <Overfiend> I have one month's worth of snail mail to report on, which I will try to get to this week.
51:58 <cdlu> I'd just like to note that this is our third consecutive meeting with >80% attendance
52:00 <Overfiend> There is nothing spectactular in it.
52:06 <Overfiend> that is all. Just wanted to let you guys know.
52:10 <CosmicRay> yeah, I'd say you don't need to bother with AG anymore from here on unless we get something else frmo them
52:12 <CosmicRay> thanks OF
52:24 <Diziet> hy: If you want me to write it up as a resolution then that's fine.
52:43 * cdlu gets to work on his shotgun blast to spi-announce
52:54 <Hydroxide> Diziet: it's you who wants it, not me...
52:59 <Hydroxide> anyway, I should go now if we're done
53:00 <Diziet> cdlu: would you be happy that the `efficient board meetings' resolution authorises you to leave things off if they're not posted enough in advance ? (I know you hate that resolution.)
53:00 <Overfiend> be sure and wipe Robert Downey, Jr.'s saliva off of the barrel
53:02 <bdale> cdlu: I'm not at all sure why you're whining to me about that. I watch our lists, but when it's quite for most of the interval and then we get a flurry of stuff in the 24 hours prior to a meeting and agenda updates while I'm grabbing a quick lunch before the meeting, it's kind of hard for me to take any serious responsibility for feeling poorly prepared for the meeting.
53:12 <bdale> s/quite/quiet/
53:21 <Diziet> I'm with bdale.
53:31 <cdlu> Diziet, no. I will shortly send a resolution that removes 'efficient board meetings' resolution and replaces it with something more realistic
53:38 * Overfiend notes that his agenda items were not intended to make people feel they needed to be prepared for them.
53:42 <CosmicRay> ok, are we really done now?
53:46 <Overfiend> I just wanted to make sure they weren't forgotten.
53:49 <Diziet> cdlu: Right, we can have a war of resolutions and the board can vote for whichever one they like.
53:56 <Overfiend> CR: IMO yes
53:59 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*, finally.

- ---
David Graham, SPI Secretary
cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org D5F45889

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From: David Graham - SPI Secretary <cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
To: spi-announce(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
Subject: Oops! (was: On the topic of minutes and the FirstIB resolution)
Date: 2004-12-01 04:57:27
Message-ID: Pine.LNX.4.55.0411302356500.12836@baffin
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Oops, wrong subject. Correct one sent in the interests of being able to
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David Graham, SPI Secretary
cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org D5F45889