Minutes for January 4th, 2005

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From: David Graham - SPI Secretary <cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
To: spi-announce(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
Subject: Minutes for January 4th, 2005
Date: 2005-03-01 20:12:40
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The folloowing minutes were adopted by the Board of Directors at its
meeting of March 1st, 2005.

1. Minutes for the January 4th, 2005 Board meeting, held at 19:00 UTC in
#spi on irc.spi-inc.org.

2. Roll call

Board members present

John Goerzen (CosmicRay) (President)
Benj. Mako Hill (mako) (Vice-President)
Jimmy Kaplowitz (Hydroxide) (Treasurer)
David Graham (cdlu) (Secretary)
Bdale Garbee (bdale)
Branden Robinson (Overfiend)
Ian Jackson (Diziet)
Martin Schulze (Joey-)
Bruce Perens (BrucePerens)

Registered guests present

Jonathan McDowell (Noodles)
Michael Schultheiss (schultmc)
Drew Scott Daniels (mlots)
Michael Banck (azeem)
Christian T. Steigies (cts)
Warren Brian Noronha (warren)

3. President's update (John Goerzen)

John Goerzen stated that he had no updates.

4. Treasurer's report (Jimmy Kaplowitz)

See appendix C for the text of the report.

In the Treasurers' report, Jimmy states that a possible solution for
allowing non-US credit card donations to SPI is through a service called
ECHO, which charges $19.95/month plus 2.26% of all donations plus $.30 per
transaction. Using such a service, he states, is better than PayPal as
PayPal has the problem of not being a bank and requiring an account.

ECHO allows us to script our own donation form, including a minimum
donation amount.

The Board agrees that this is within the powers and budget of the
Treasurer to do without formal board approval.

This goes to a motion:

Ian Jackson states: "I move we thank the Treasurer for his research, and
say we are happy for the Treasurer to carry on." seconded by Branden


David Graham Yes
Ian Jackson Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Abstain
Benj. Mako Hill Yes
Bruce Perens Yes
Martin Schulze Did not vote

The board moves that "We thank the Treasurer for his research, and say we
are happy for the Treasurer to carry on." by a vote of 7 in favour, none
against, 1 abstain, and 1 no-show.

5. Outstanding minutes (David Graham)

* December 7th, 2004

A vote on the minutes was deferred until the meeting of February 1st.

6. New project membership request: Drupal

Bruce Perens states that SPI is not currently in good shape to handle
Drupal's money, and wishes to ensure Drupal is aware of the problems.

The rest of the board agrees this is for Drupal to decide.

The Board established that Warren Noronha will be our contact with Drupal
and that Dries Buytaert is in charge of the project.

A resolution (see Appendix B) to this effect is drawn up inviting Drupal
to join SPI as an Associated project.

On the resolution "2005-01-04.iwj.1: Drupal as Associated Project", the
vote is as follows:

Ian Jackson: Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Bruce Perens Yes
Benj. Mako Hill Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
David Graham Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes
Martin Schulze Did not vote

Drupal is invited to join SPI as an associated project by a vote of 8 for,
0 against, 0 abstentions, and 1 no-show.

7. The next meeting is scheduled for February 1st, 2005 at 19:00 UTC.

8. The meeting closes at 19:41 UTC.


Appendix A: Current Board Membership

Date elected Name Role
[2003-03-11] John Goerzen President
[2003-03-11] Benjamin Mako Hill Vice President
[2003-11-29] David Graham Secretary
[2004-02-20] Jimmy Kaplowitz Treasurer
[2004-07-29] Bdale Garbee
[2004-07-29] Branden Robinson
[2003-11-29] Ian Jackson
[2003-03-11] Bruce Perens
[2003-11-29] Martin "Joey" Schulze


Appendix B: Approved Resolutions

Resolution 2005-01-04.iwj.1: Drupal as Associated Project


1. Drupal is a substantial and significant Free Software project.

2. The Drupal developers would like SPI to take donations for
purposes related to Drupal.


3. Drupal is formally invited to become an SPI Associated Project,
according to the SPI Framework for Associated Projects,
SPI Resolution 1998-11-16.iwj.1-amended-2004-08-10.iwj.1,
a copy of which can be found at

4. The Drupal Founder and Lead Developer, Dries Buytaert, is
recognised by SPI as the current authoritative decisionmaker in
the Drupal project.

5. This invitation will lapse, if not accepted, 60 days after it
is approved by the SPI Board.


Appendix C: Treasurers' Report

I have reviewed with great interest the discussion thread about a new
report format for me to use. I will try to adopt some format based on
those suggestions in time for the February report; I have not been able to
do that yet, due to the busy pace of the holiday season and a
lower-than-normal level of access to my computers while on vacation.

Bank balances

As of December 31, 2004, the FirstIB checking account contains $10,677.01.
The only transaction since this account was opened was a $10 maintenance
fee, which should more properly apply only to business accounts and not to
nonprofit accounts such as ours. Branden or I will talk to them about this
in an attempt to get the charge reversed. Hiccups like this are to be
expected when an account has just been opened.

The American Express Financial Advisors account only sends statements
quarterly and not monthly, and Branden and I are unaware of any online
account viewing feature associated with that account. Therefore, expect an
update on this account in the Treasurer's report for the February board
meeting. We will look into the existence of any online or telephone
account information system for this account.

Providence PO Box

I checked the Providence PO box twice in December. On December 16, there
was a mail from our Secretary, David Graham, containing my copy of one of
the forms used to open the First IB checking account. In addition to this,
there was a sizable quantity of mostly large envelopes, none of which
contained our name. Some of these simply had our PO Box number indicated,
while others had indicated recipients such as "Receptionist," "Human
Resources," "Law Office," and "Providence Law Office."

Understandably, I felt that some mistake had been made, and I discussed
this with a postal employee. She determined that there was a law office
which had a mailbox at that post office, and whose box number differed
from ours by only one digit. She and I assumed that they must have made a
typographical error in a job advertisement. The postal employee held the
mail for the law office, none of which had any SPI-related markings on the
envelope, and she said she would contact the law firm to have them correct
their error. I made it clear that we would take any mail that did turn out
to be for us despite appearances.

When I checked the mailbox again on December 21 soon before going on
vacation, the box was empty, so presumably the above mishap got resolved
appropriately. I will check it again shortly after I return to Providence
on the 13th of this month.

Old business

As indicated above, the First IB account got opened and the funds
deposited, with only the minor mishap of an accidental maintenance fee.
Hooray! Branden has also received two ATM/Visa cards associated with the
account, and the corresponding PINs. Unfortunately, mine as well as his
went to the Indianapolis address, but he will send me mine after my return
to Providence.

New business

I have done some investigating into alternative donation solutions, since
there are many limitations of Network for Good. One option worth
considering is ECHO, which is a reputable financial company that will
provide a true merchant account at relatively reasonable rates. We would
be able to process credit cards (the following rates apply to Visa and
Mastercard but other brands are possible too) at a cost of $0.30 per
transaction plus 2.26% of the donation amount, plus a $19.95/month fee for
any months in which we receive donations. Checks can be cleared through
this system too, if we so desire, for $0.30/transaction, although this is
less obviously beneficial. This would include electronic checks where the
user never physically mails us anything but just enters the info online.

The $19.95 fee is unfortunate, but it would be more than offset by the
additional donations we would receive from international donors who cannot
currently donate to us through Network for Good. (They can donate in their
local currency, and we will receive US dollars after conversion by the
credit card companies.) We can also, for those donors who wish it, set up
recurring donations via periodic charges to their credit cards. I am not
entirely sure whether we would want to recommend going through ECHO in
only some cases and NfG in others, or only ECHO all the time.

One last benefit is that their gateway is truly open, in that they provide
*GPLed* code to use their processing system in a plethora of UNIX-friendly
programming languages including stalwarts like PHP and Perl, as well as
make available a specification of their gateway interface for developer
use. We can integrate their processing with our site, or if we prefer we
can process through their Merchant America site for free. (The latter
might be the way to go if we don't also want to purchase a commercial SSL
certificate, in the interest of not making our donors worry about website

A complication is that they require an associated bank account at First
Regional Bank, but we can regularly transfer funds to our First IB
account. There are no charges for this additional account if we make 10 or
fewer debits per month, which would be the case if we transfer funds, say,
weekly to First IB. I don't think this is a downside of ECHO, since all
true merchant accounts have a similar requirement due to Visa and
Mastercard rules. After all, it is a merchant _account_, and banks are
often involved in legitimate tools such as that (as opposed to cheap
imitations like PayPal).

Please take a look at the following links and tell me what you think. I
may propose a resolution before or during the meeting (if a resolution is
even necessary for this), or simply gather opinions for a future decision.

General info on their non-profit program, with other FAQs easily linked:


Fee structure for non-profits and more info on accepting donations:



Info on working with their payment gateway:

Gateway tech specs:


Appendix D: Meeting log

00:37 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*
00:45 <CosmicRay> [item 1, opening] This meeting of the Board of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., is called to order.
00:46 <cdlu> guests, /msg me your full names, please
00:46 <Hydroxide> Joey-: I believe you when you say we held money for them, the question is whether it has been given to them by now
00:52 <CosmicRay> PLEASE NOTE: Our agenda for today, AND all the resolutions and minutes we will be voting on, are online at:
01:00 <Joey-> Hyd: oh.
01:01 <CosmicRay> http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/
01:01 <CosmicRay> [item 2, roll call] Board members, please state your name for the record. Others present may /msg cdlu with your full name if you wish to be listed in the records.
01:01 <CosmicRay> We have 9 board members, so quorum for today is 6.
01:01 <CosmicRay> We have received no regrets today.
01:10 <Hydroxide> Jimmy Kaplowitz
01:13 <IanJackson> Ian Jackson.
01:15 <CosmicRay> John Goerzen
01:19 <bdale> Bdale Garbee
01:21 <cdlu> David Graham
01:28 <BrandenRobinson> Branden Robinson
01:30 <cdlu> quorum
01:46 <CosmicRay> is joey here?
01:52 <bdale> appears to be
02:01 <CosmicRay> ok, we have met quorom.
02:02 <Hydroxide> CosmicRay: yes, he is. he was just talking to me in channel when the meeting started
02:12 <CosmicRay> [item 3, president's update]
02:12 <CosmicRay> Nothing to report that will not be discussed under other items.
02:12 <CosmicRay> [item 4, treasurer's report] Branden sent a snail mail roundup and Jimmy sent an update.
02:14 <BrandenRobinson> he never says his name; I suggest we treat it is a disability and accomodate him per the ADA
02:28 <mako> Benjamin Mako Hill
02:40 <Hydroxide> one thing about the treasurer's report
02:40 <cdlu> Hydroxide, see agenda. is that what you want?
02:42 <warren> Warren Brian Noronha
02:45 <bdale> I haven't seen either item, are they in email?
02:56 <CosmicRay> bdale: yes
03:00 * bdale looks
03:01 <CosmicRay> -board
03:08 <Hydroxide> cdlu has just added the treasurer's report to the agenda
03:23 <bdale> got them
03:24 <Hydroxide> cdlu: I only really wanted the contents of the "new business" section to be there
03:33 <Hydroxide> cdlu: but the other stuff just happens not to be private this time
03:45 <Hydroxide> cdlu: unless anyone disagrees about that...
04:01 <Hydroxide> I especially want people's thoughts about the New business ection
04:04 <Hydroxide> *section
04:11 <Hydroxide> where I talk about possibly opening a merchant account with ECHO
04:16 <cdlu> Hydroxide, you do realise a treasurer's report does not need to be this .. verbose? :)
04:37 <IanJackson> We want numbers, not words :-).
04:44 <cdlu> right
05:02 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I gave you what number I had time to give during the holiday season ... see my note at the top
05:04 <bdale> the preamble indicates he knows that and will work on it for Feb report, holidays as excuse which is ok with me
05:04 * BrandenRobinson is concerned about getting socked with $19.95 every month we get donations
05:35 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: I think we'll probably get at least $20 worth of donations via international credit cards that we don't get now
05:39 <Hydroxide> I could be wrong
05:50 <Hydroxide> per month
06:31 <bdale> I'd only be bothered by the fee if it turns out we consistently get less than $20/month in donations by that method.
06:43 <bdale> I'd be willing to try it for a few months and see how it works out.
06:53 <BrandenRobinson> I was thinking we should set up some concrete criteria for deciding...
06:54 <BrandenRobinson> yeah
07:04 <bdale> 6 months?
07:07 <BrandenRobinson> I'm for doing ECHO on a probationary basis.
07:19 <Hydroxide> the other factor is, the per-transaction fee is 2.26% + $0.30 as compared to NfG's 3%
07:20 <BrandenRobinson> 6 months sounds good.
07:24 <IanJackson> Do we know what the competition is like ?
07:34 <bdale> I don't
07:39 * BrandenRobinson neither.
07:40 <cdlu> Hydroxide, what does ECHO have over a Paypal Donate button?
07:43 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I know that ECHO is a pretty reasonable rate, from the comparison web browsing I've done
07:57 <IanJackson> Right. Hmm.
08:07 <bdale> there's nothing to prevent us changing providers at some point if we've decided the method is good but the terms could be better
08:07 <IanJackson> Can we prevent donations of less than a certain amount ?
08:12 <Hydroxide> cdlu: people can donate without needing a paypal account, and we don't have to deal with crazy "not a bank" paypal
08:15 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: yes, we can
08:23 * mako says try it out
08:23 <BrandenRobinson> oh, really?
08:24 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: we have total control ... we can script our own donation form if we want
08:25 <bdale> IanJackson: possibly, but I don't see the point unless it proves problematic
08:26 <BrandenRobinson> That's neat/
08:36 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: they give GPL'ed source code in PHP/Perl/other langs, plus a full tech spec
08:39 <warren> i know of 2checkout... its a one time fee of $49 and a transaction charge. also authorize.net is supposed to be used a lot by people
08:51 <IanJackson> Have we considered CAF ?
09:06 <MLOTS> Any way we go, donars should probably be given information about the fees and when/how best to donate.
09:14 * BrandenRobinson had not considered the ramifications of having access to the source.
09:28 <BrandenRobinson> MLOTS: Agreed.
09:30 <Hydroxide> warren: those people resell services such as what ECHO provides ... they're reselling merchant accounts from banks
09:34 <Hydroxide> MLOTS: yes.
09:38 <IanJackson> Hrm, CAF American doesn't seem quite the same as the UK version.
09:45 <BrandenRobinson> We should do the same for the traditional snail mail donations.
09:53 <bdale> agreed
09:57 <Hydroxide> we can actually direct US donors who are donationg less than ~40 to Network For Good
10:03 <BrandenRobinson> They don't *cost* much in terms of hard currency, but they are far and away the most labor-intensive.
10:07 <Hydroxide> and foreign donors or people donating more than ~40 to ECHO
10:15 <BrandenRobinson> Witness the problem that gets my ass beat all the time. Hi, Bruce.
10:31 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: we can, if we want, use ECHO for even snail mail check-based donations
11:02 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: I don't grok how.
11:05 <bdale> if we take plastic, I bet the count of checks goes down
11:05 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: however, the $0.30 per-transaction check charge, while it significantly lacks the additional 2.26% for credit card transactions, is still more expensive than mailing
11:31 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: yeah
11:34 <IanJackson> Are we quorate yet ?
11:35 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: entering in check #, routing #, acct #, etc in to the ECHO website
11:37 <bdale> businesses are still likely to write checks
11:38 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: yes
11:38 <cdlu> Ian, we have been the whole time
11:40 <mako> IanJackson: yes
11:42 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: yes.
11:49 <IanJackson> Um, we seem not to be following the agenda, then :-).
11:50 <CosmicRay> are we ready to move on?
11:59 <CosmicRay> we are still discussing the treasurer's report, theoretically.
12:01 <Hydroxide> so, people think I should sign up for this?
12:02 <bdale> IanJackson: random walk around treasurer's report
12:08 <Hydroxide> or investigate further?
12:10 <IanJackson> I must have missed the other bits. OK.
12:12 <CosmicRay> Hydroxide: could you just use your budget for it?
12:13 <Hydroxide> or propose a resolution via email?
12:17 <CosmicRay> (is your budget large enough)
12:18 * BrandenRobinson thinks we should go for it.
12:21 <Hydroxide> CosmicRay: there's no startup fee for nonprofits
12:27 <CosmicRay> I mean the monthly fee
12:33 <cdlu> $20 a month fee should come out of donations
12:38 * BrandenRobinson is pretty sure people are tired of SPI's "don't just do something, stand there!" approach.
12:38 <cdlu> if it pays for itself, great. if not, we scrap it.
12:41 <bdale> I believe this is within the treasurer's powers and doesn't need board action.
12:49 <CosmicRay> I agree with bdale
12:54 <Hydroxide> okay, good. just wanted to get opinions then
12:55 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: well, gathering an informal consensus is good.
13:01 <Hydroxide> I'll come back to the board if ECHO requires a resolution
13:01 * mako agrees with bdale
13:04 <BrandenRobinson> lets Jimmy know we're behind him.
13:05 <bdale> I've stated my opinion that we should try it for 6 months and evaluate the results.
13:09 <Hydroxide> cool.
13:10 <mako> Hydroxide: run with it
13:13 <Hydroxide> *nod*
13:17 <Hydroxide> I'm done, then
13:20 <IanJackson> I move we thank the Treasurer for his research, and say we are happy for the Treasurer to carry on.
13:21 * BrandenRobinson encourages Jimmy to give it a whirl, and is in agreement with Bdale regarding the probationary aspects.
13:36 <IanJackson> The fee is within Jimmy's budget.
13:46 * BrandenRobinson seconds IanJackson's motion.
13:58 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I say it should come out of donations if it pays for itself, and if it doesn't then we'll cover the shortfall out of my budget during the probationary period
13:58 <IanJackson> If it turns out to be good then we can formally approve the fee. If it's bad Hy can scrap it without talking to us.
13:58 <CosmicRay> ok, we are voting on ianjackson's motion.
14:05 <CosmicRay> !vote start
14:05 <bolt> Starting a new vote
14:08 <cdlu> !vote yes
14:08 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
14:10 <IanJackson> !vote yes
14:10 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
14:10 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
14:10 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
14:11 <bdale> !vote yes
14:11 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
14:11 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
14:11 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
14:17 <Hydroxide> !vote abstain
14:17 <bolt> Noted abstain vote from Hydroxide
14:20 <mako> !vote yes
14:20 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
14:31 <CosmicRay> joey? bruce?
14:32 <Hydroxide> do we really need to vote on this? yay we like procedure
14:33 <BrandenRobinson> waiting on Bruce and Joey
14:41 <mako> Hydroxide: ssh.. it's almost done
14:43 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: IanJackson made a motion.
14:47 <CosmicRay> Hydroxide: the motion was made and seconded, so yes..
14:50 <mako> Hydroxide: that one was quick and painless :)
14:59 <cdlu> result cannot be changed, mr. president
15:01 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
15:01 <bolt> vote result: yes. 6 yes votes, 0 no votes and 1 abstentions
15:03 <IanJackson> I thought if we had a motion we could get on to the next agenda item :-).
15:13 <bdale> IanJackson: good man!
15:16 <CosmicRay> :-)
15:16 <cdlu> heh
15:19 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I was ready to move on... :)
15:21 <CosmicRay> [item 5, outstanding minutes] We have minutes from December 7, 2004, to approve.
15:21 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: don't look a 6-0-1 in the mouth when it's praising you :)
15:27 <Hydroxide> hehehe ;)
15:34 <CosmicRay> is there discussion on the minutes?
15:35 <BrucePerens> !vote yes
15:35 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrucePerens
15:45 <cdlu> my apologies for getting them in so late, but damn I had a good time trainspotting in new england :)
15:45 <IanJackson> cr: I haven't read the minutes. They were only posted this afternoon.
15:54 <Hydroxide> !vote stop
15:54 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 1 abstentions
16:05 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
16:05 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
16:09 <BrandenRobinson> er, wait.
16:14 <BrandenRobinson> nm.
16:23 <CosmicRay> do we wish to vote on them by e-mail or next month then?
16:23 <mako> BrandenRobinson: vote early, vote often
16:24 <Joey-> Err, that vote was just "Say thanks to Jimmy?"
16:25 <IanJackson> Let's do the minutes next month when we've had a chance to read them.
16:26 * BrandenRobinson switched away to review the minutes and got confused.
16:30 <CosmicRay> Joey-: yes.
16:32 <BrandenRobinson> Joey-: essentially.
16:33 <Hydroxide> Joey-: I know, it didn't seem necessary to me
16:34 <Joey-> stupid.
16:42 <Hydroxide> Joey-: but they went ahead with it
16:50 <cdlu> the minutes are pretty short this month. the appendices are verbatim
16:52 <bdale> CosmicRay: next month
16:53 * BrandenRobinson moves that we alter the bylaws to forbid ever using a resolution to thank Joey- for anything :-P
16:56 <BrandenRobinson> (not serious)
17:11 <mako> alrights.. lets vote on these minutes
17:13 <Hydroxide> anyway, I move to vote on the minutes ... they seem fine to me
17:13 <CosmicRay> ok, we can do the nminutes next month then
17:18 <CosmicRay> er.
17:22 <IanJackson> I will vote no on the minutes because I haven't reviewed them.
17:29 <BrandenRobinson> CR: I have not had time to review the minutes in detail.
17:30 <CosmicRay> Hydroxide: some have not had a chance to review them yet.
17:31 <bdale> abstain for same reason
17:36 <BrandenRobinson> I wouldn't be making a fully informed vote.
17:38 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I'd recommend abstaining
17:41 <cdlu> CR, whatever, postpone it :)
17:44 <BrandenRobinson> I trust cdlu, but I haven't read every word.
17:44 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: a no vote suggests that you think there's an error
17:46 * mako shrugs.. sounds fine
17:47 <CosmicRay> let's move on to drupal
17:49 <Hydroxide> ok
17:50 <Joey-> iwj: You should abstain then, not vote against.
17:50 <CosmicRay> [item 6, Drupal as associated project]
17:54 <cdlu> ok
17:56 <CosmicRay> Drupal has requested an association with SPI. Warren Brian Noronha is here representing Drupal.
18:00 <CosmicRay> (irc nick warren)
18:01 <BrandenRobinson> CR: DO we need a motion to deviate from the minutes?
18:03 <cdlu> BrucePerens, you've voiced a rather unconstructive opposition to Drupal..
18:04 <mako> warren: greets again
18:05 <BrandenRobinson> I guess not :)
18:06 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: no
18:06 <pkern> Hm an objection just came in.
18:08 <IanJackson> A `no' vote means I think the resolution should not be approved. It should not be, since we should review it.
18:09 <BrucePerens> I suggest that we table this matter at this time.
18:14 <warren> mako: big hello
18:17 <pkern> k
18:20 <BrandenRobinson> BrucePerens: which one? minutes or Drupal?
18:21 <IanJackson> Hello Warren.
18:25 <BrucePerens> SPI is not currently in good shape to handle Drupal's money.
18:39 <IanJackson> bp: I think that's up to Drupal.
18:47 <warren> IanJackson: hello
18:49 <CosmicRay> BrucePerens: is that unique to drupal?
18:53 <Hydroxide> BrucePerens: I think we can do it as well as we can for wxWidgets or GNUstep or Debian
18:55 <BrandenRobinson> BrucePerens: Wouldn't you say we're not in good shape to handle anyone's money? Has wxwidgets been displeased?
18:59 <CosmicRay> BrucePerens: FWIW, I made sure warren is aware of the situation.
19:02 <Hydroxide> BrucePerens: which is much better now than it used to be
19:07 <BrucePerens> I'm not clear that Drupal staff are aware of the extent of the problems. Other organizations are already signed on, Drupal is not.
19:12 <Hydroxide> BrucePerens: although we obviously have a long way to go
19:13 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: you know Bruce isn't going to believe that
19:15 <IanJackson> More relevantly, I think we've not had all the info we need from Drupal. In particular, we need to know what to put in the `SPI currently recognises ...' bit of the motion we had with gnustep.
19:25 <BrandenRobinson> there is that...
19:51 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: well isn't that the purpose of talking with warren today?
19:59 <IanJackson> Bruce: I suggest you talk to Drupal about that. CC the board for form's sake, and describe what you think of our problems. I'm sure we won't disagree with you.
20:06 <mako> BrucePerens: i had a talk with them and brought them up to speed on spi.. good and bad
20:11 <BrandenRobinson> IanJackson: well, that depends on what he says.
20:16 <BrucePerens> Well, if you folks are satisfied that we are making progress, I will abstain. But I'd like to see a paid book-keeper soon.
20:19 <CosmicRay> mako: me tooo.
20:31 <mako> the drupal group sat on it for a few weeks and decided unanimously to move forward
20:42 <IanJackson> warren: Did you see my email asking who's in charge ?
20:43 <Hydroxide> I note that we have no backlog of checks, except for what was picked up at the most recent mailbox run
20:50 <Hydroxide> they have all been deposited except for those
20:53 <BrandenRobinson> It might be worthwhile to poll the SPI membership on whether *they* feel we've made progress.
20:58 <IanJackson> I tried to find this information on the drupal website but I didn't find it.
21:05 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: all of those are enumerated in my snail mail report ending 2004-12-13
21:08 <BrandenRobinson> s/13/31/
21:09 <Hydroxide> yes
21:09 <warren> IanJackson: till right now most of the decision that were made were by the creator him self
21:25 <warren> we are willing to put in a team to make a collective decision
21:28 <Hydroxide> I think we're in perfectly reasonable shape to take on drupal
21:30 <IanJackson> If money and stuff is going to be involved we need to know who's word to take.
21:30 <bdale> IanJackson: http://drupal.org/node/10257
21:35 <CosmicRay> the former puts it in a similar position to gnustep
21:39 <Hydroxide> (as much as we ever have been to take on any project)
21:47 * IanJackson reads the URL.
22:13 <bdale> doesn't speak specifically to who would direct SPI's handling of funds
22:28 <mako> IanJackson: i explained our concerns with decision-making and money to the team
22:30 <bdale> we still need someone identified ini that role
22:33 <mako> IanJackson: which included the foudner
22:39 <IanJackson> mako: Right.
22:52 <IanJackson> bdale: Quite so. Warren, do you have a clear answer for us now on this question ?
23:10 <BrucePerens> They can always leave when they want to.
23:17 <CosmicRay> dries buytaert is the founder and lead developer.
23:33 <Hydroxide> BrucePerens: yes, every associated project has that right
23:41 <IanJackson> So Dries will be essentially in charge of spending decisions.
23:44 <BrucePerens> Except OpenSource.org :-)
23:47 <IanJackson> Is that right, Warren ?
23:53 <warren> IanJackson: some what
24:02 <IanJackson> Somewhat. Hrm.
24:03 <warren> IanJackson: as i said we are ready to put a team
24:03 <Hydroxide> BrucePerens: I think opensource.org essentially has left ... that's not the only inaccuracy on the website
24:12 <warren> IanJackson: that will take a collective decision
24:14 <BrandenRobinson> If having a prettier website than SPI indicates that an organization has its shit together better than we do, then we are in no position to challenge Drupal on matters of form. :)
24:15 <IanJackson> Perhaps we should clarify this in email so we can put together a coherent answer.
24:31 <bdale> warren: what SPI needs is to know the individual who will authoritativel communicate to SPI what SPI should do with funds held for drupal.
24:33 <warren> IanJackson: it would include Dries, Kjartan
24:34 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: haha
24:45 <warren> bdale: ah.. that would be Dries
24:54 <IanJackson> warren: Would you be upset if we postponed the formal approval until next month ?
24:56 <BrandenRobinson> sounds like we have our answer, then.
25:04 <IanJackson> So we can work this out ? I don't think that answer is clear, yet.
25:11 <Hydroxide> it does sound like an answer
25:14 <BrandenRobinson> We know who our POC is. What more do we really need?
25:21 <warren> IanJackson: ok
25:23 <IanJackson> What if Kjartan and Dries disagree ?
25:28 <CosmicRay> well we don't have a resolution to vote on now, but we have all we need to draft one, so we could approve it via e-mail.
25:28 <MLOTS> IanJackson: Can't this be voted on via -board?
25:36 <IanJackson> It could be, but we're not very good at that.
25:41 <warren> IanJackson: the finaly dealing with spi is up to me
25:43 <IanJackson> I wouldn't like to promise to Warren that it would happen.
25:52 <BrandenRobinson> "the individual who will authoritativel communicate to SPI what SPI should do with funds held for drupal" is Dries.
25:57 <warren> IanJackson: i will inform them about this meeting in my report to the members of drupal
26:02 <BrandenRobinson> if that is a truthful statement, IMO we have what we need.
26:10 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: warren just made it a bit more confusing
26:11 <CosmicRay> and it looks like warren is an advisor.
26:22 <cdlu> what is confusing?
26:22 <IanJackson> I'm confused. We should take it offline.
26:24 <BrandenRobinson> internal disagreements within Drupal are not our concern.
26:28 <cdlu> warren is point of contact, dries makes the decisions
26:33 <Joey-> So basically, SPI listens to warren and warren listenes to Dries and Kjartan, until they disagree and he throws a coin or something.
26:34 <Hydroxide> yeah, okay
26:35 <IanJackson> We need to know which side is in charge.
26:41 <warren> yes ill will be the contact
26:48 <bdale> in the same way that it'd be ok for Debian to have a rep to SPI other than the DPL, it's okay for drupal to have a rep to SPI that isn't the ultimate financial decision making authority.
26:49 <warren> dries makes the decisions
26:55 <IanJackson> bdale: Quite so.
26:56 <Hydroxide> bdale: yeah, that makes sense
26:58 * BrandenRobinson nods at what bdale said.
27:13 * cdlu nods
27:21 <cdlu> so, Ian, can you accept that warren is the ambassador? :)
27:24 <BrandenRobinson> Then we're basically done. We listen to Warren, with the knowledge that Dries can override him.
27:37 <bdale> as far as I'm concerned, it's up to the drupal folks to decide their chain of authority, we just need to know who to believe when we are given instructions
27:48 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: I think we have that now.
27:51 * warren nods in aggrement
28:07 <IanJackson> Warren, so something like `The Drupal Founder and Lead Developer, Dries Buytaert, is recognised by SPI as the current authoritative decisionmaker in the Drupal project' ?
28:30 <warren> yes
28:37 <mako> sounds good
28:39 <IanJackson> If Dries is the ultimate authority then we don't need your name in our resolution; Dries can just tell us you're appointed.
28:44 <bdale> ... for the purpose of directing disbursement of funds collected by SPI on behalf of the project
28:46 <BrandenRobinson> wow, remember the good old days of unelected, absolute project leaders?
28:55 <IanJackson> Oh, hello. Are you Dries Buytaert ?
29:08 <IanJackson> bdale: No, not just for that purpose. For all purposes.
29:14 <bdale> ok
29:16 <Dries_> hello, that's me
29:20 <warren> there we have dries
29:23 <bdale> welcome
29:31 <warren> Dries_: hello
29:35 <Dries_> thanks, nice meeting you
29:38 <BrandenRobinson> Dries_: hello, and thanks for joining us
29:43 <IanJackson> Welcome.
29:46 <mako> Dries_: hello again
30:04 <IanJackson> We're just sorting out our invitation to you. Do you agree that you're currently in charge of Drupal, in the sense that you get to decide, ultimately, if there's a dispute ?
30:19 * BrandenRobinson smacks robster around posthumously for sassing the Drupal folks with his /quit message.
30:32 <Dries_> lol
30:33 <BrucePerens> Dries, I just want to make sure you have been informed that SPI had some financial difficulties in the past year, and does not currently have a paid book-keeper.
30:58 <cdlu> we do, however, have Bruce Perens, and therefore the world is flat.
31:14 <Dries_> I have had several discussions/meetings with both warren and mako
31:14 <cdlu> Ian, have you a resolution that we can look at?
31:21 <BrandenRobinson> Dries_: i.e., we suck, and we know we suck, but we've been gradually dialing down the vacuum pressure.
31:44 <IanJackson> Board members, I suggest (if Dries answers `yes') that we have a resolution like 2004-11-08.iwj.1 (which can be found in the draft minutes), with s/GNUstep/Drupal/ and s/The GNUstep maintainer, Adam Fedor/The Drupal Founder and Lead Developer, Dries Buytaert/'
31:46 <Dries_> I'm Drupal's project lead so I get to decide on disputes
31:55 <mako> Dries_: sounds good
31:57 <IanJackson> dries: Thanks, that's clear.
32:00 <cdlu> Ian, fine with me.
32:07 <Hydroxide> Dries_: we are, however, vastly far improved than where we were when the bulk of the financial difficulties were developing, even though we have more improving to do
32:18 <IanJackson> Does anyone need me to write that up as a proper resolution ?
32:26 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: people will quibble with "vastly far".
32:27 <cdlu> Ian, for clarity, please
32:27 <mako> IanJackson: i can vote on it before we do
32:33 <bdale> IanJackson: needs to happen for the record, I'm ok with voting now.
32:36 <IanJackson> cdlu: OK, I will.
32:42 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: probably.
32:46 <mako> alright then :)
32:47 <IanJackson> Please carry on with the rest of the agenda while I faff with my Emacs.
32:55 <cdlu> Ian, that's the end of the agenda :)
32:59 <CosmicRay> there is no rest of the agenda to speak of
33:00 * bdale will wait
33:17 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: Well, it's a matter of perspective. Some people are single-mindedly focussed on what they consider to be one essential criterion, and as long as that is met the sincerely can't perceive any meaningful progress.
33:21 <CosmicRay> our next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, February 1, 2005, at 19:00 UTC.
33:23 <mako> Dries_, warren: hold on.. we'll get to voting on you yet :)
33:30 <warren> k
33:31 <BrandenRobinson> er
33:36 <BrandenRobinson> as long as that is *not* met.
33:41 <cdlu> mako, anyone who can put up with an entire SPI meeting *deserves* to be allowed to join :)
33:51 <bdale> cdlu: pfft
33:51 <warren> hehe
34:00 <mako> cdlu: that could be taken more than one way :)
34:10 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: well, yes, if you measure by having a paid bookkeeper, we don't have that. if you measure by being able to deposit checks in a timely fashion, we are doing quite acceptably.
34:15 <bdale> mako: most things can
34:15 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: E.g., when Bruce told me to my face at LinuxWorld San Francisco last year that he'd be happy as long as I didn't touch any of the money. :)
34:16 <mako> cdlu: my god, what does that make me
34:28 <IanJackson> Dries, do I have your name right ? `Dries Buytaert' ?
34:30 * BrandenRobinson is, however, still touching most of the money.
34:51 <cdlu> Branden, 2 treasurers is better than one. (It gives us someone else to shoot at.)
34:53 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: and, honestly, I think you're doing a good job at it, with me nagging you sometimes and you nagging me other times
34:56 <Hydroxide> brb
34:58 <mako> BrandenRobinson: scrooge mcduck style, nodoubt
34:58 * BrandenRobinson need to touch some of of it over to the bank tomorrow :)
35:03 <Dries_> after my talk with mako/warren, I began making our current donations/expenses more transparent (it's a work in progress but you can see it at http://drupal.org/donate)
35:03 <IanJackson> I have another agenda item, BTW, just a quickie:
35:17 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: pfft, finish with your emacs already :-)
35:20 <Dries_> IanJackson, that's correct yes
35:38 * IanJackson sends the proposal 2005-01-04.iwj.1.
35:49 <cdlu> wait, Ian, mr. never-add-anything-to-the-agenda-less-than-7-days-ahead is adding something to the agenda at the end of the meeting? ;)
35:56 <Hydroxide> back
36:10 <bdale> cdlu: be calm
36:11 <IanJackson> cdlu: I got voted down, remember. So I'm doing what you all told me to do. If you don't like it, repropose my resolution :-P
36:11 <cdlu> Ian, I'm all for that
36:13 * BrandenRobinson cackles at cdlu.
36:29 <cdlu> Ian, I don't mind at all. I just think it's very funny. :)
36:30 <IanJackson> The one more thing was this: Has anyone heard from Adam or anyone else at GNUstep ?
36:37 <bdale> not I
36:43 <mako> nope
36:45 * BrandenRobinson hasn't, and hasn't noticed any spi list traffic from them
36:51 <CosmicRay> I haven't yet received the new resolution
36:51 <IanJackson> If not, I'll send him a reminder.
36:51 <cdlu> Ian, not a peep here. But I've been incommunicado and still have about 2K spam to find real mail between.
37:02 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: please do, thanks.
37:10 <Hydroxide> Adam has to accept the invitation within 60 days, I believe
37:14 <IanJackson> OK, everyone have -04.iwj.1 now ? Are we ready to vote ?
37:16 <IanJackson> hy: Quite so.
37:21 <BrucePerens> Ready to vote.
37:23 <cdlu> Ian, yes. john?
37:25 <BrandenRobinson> reviewing...
37:37 * CosmicRay still doesn't have it.
37:40 <CosmicRay> where was it sent?
37:44 * BrandenRobinson seconds -04.iwj.1
37:54 <CosmicRay> ah there it is.
37:55 <BrandenRobinson> From: Ian Jackson <ijackson(at)chiark(dot)greenend(dot)org(dot)uk>
37:55 <BrandenRobinson> To: Warren Brian Noronha <warren(at)gnu(dot)org(dot)in>, secretary(at)spi-inc(dot)org,
37:55 <BrandenRobinson> spi-private(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org, board(at)spi-inc(dot)org
37:55 <BrandenRobinson> Subject: Re: [Spi-private] Drupal and SPI
37:55 <BrandenRobinson> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:35:22 +0000
37:56 <IanJackson> board(at)spi-inc, spi-private(at)lists, Warren, secretary(at)spi-inc
38:02 <BrucePerens> Resolving that they have been properly warned, I will vote yes.
38:04 <CosmicRay> ok, this vote is on Ian's resolution to accept Drupal.
38:08 <CosmicRay> !vote start
38:08 <bolt> Starting a new vote
38:10 <IanJackson> !vote yes
38:10 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
38:12 <BrandenRobinson> M!vote yes
38:14 <BrandenRobinson> BAH
38:14 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
38:14 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
38:15 <BrucePerens> !vote yes
38:15 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrucePerens
38:20 <mako> !vote yes
38:20 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
38:20 <BrandenRobinson> !vote BAH
38:20 <bolt> Usage: !vote (start|stop|yes|no|abstain)
38:21 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
38:21 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
38:24 <cdlu> it's now in the agenda, for reference
38:24 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
38:24 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
38:25 <cdlu> !vote yes
38:25 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
38:39 <cdlu> !vote stop
38:39 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
38:41 <bdale> !vote yes
38:41 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
38:45 <BrandenRobinson> and one "BAH" :-P
38:48 <Hydroxide> !vote stop
38:48 <bolt> vote result: yes. 8 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
38:55 * Dries_ smiles
38:56 * BrandenRobinson laments his neurological disorder.
38:57 <cdlu> welcome to SPI, warren and dries :)
38:58 <mako> Dries_, warren: welcome
38:59 <Hydroxide> can we also now have dries accept the invitation for the record?
39:02 * warren big smile :)
39:14 <mako> Hydroxide: he smiled.. that's good enough
39:17 <mako> :)
39:17 <Hydroxide> okay :)
39:22 <BrandenRobinson> well, no, it's not :)
39:26 <cdlu> mako, that was warren :)
39:28 <CosmicRay> OK.
39:30 * Dries_ thanks SPI for its support to Drupal, and the Open Source / Free Software community in general
39:37 <cdlu> Dries, are you accepting the invitation? :)
39:37 <IanJackson> Dries: You're welcome.
39:39 <BrandenRobinson> ...and accepts the offer? :)
39:47 <Dries_> we do
39:52 <Hydroxide> ok
39:55 <cdlu> congratulations
39:56 <BrandenRobinson> cool. We are powerful sticklers for detail.
39:56 <cdlu> ok
40:00 <IanJackson> (Have you read the Framework ?)
40:11 <cdlu> Branden, aren't we. I've concluded that the length of a meeting is inversely proportional to the length of the agenda.
40:19 <mako> IanJackson: no
40:31 <bdale> cdlu: not surprising, since a detailed agenda implies more work was done ahead of the meeting
40:34 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: i.e., the less we have to think about, the more we obsess over details?
40:40 <CosmicRay> heh
40:46 <CosmicRay> OK, and on that note, are we ready to move on?
40:53 <Hydroxide> interestingly enough, I don't think the Framework actually requires project decisionmakers to read it before accepting association :)
40:54 <cdlu> Branden, bdale, we can't even agree on jokes. Sheesh. :)
40:56 <BrandenRobinson> oh, I thought it was more like we have a fixed amount of thinking we're each willing to do each meeting.
40:58 <mako> CosmicRay: please
41:02 <CosmicRay> [item 7, next meeting] Our next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, February 1, 2005.
41:02 * Hydroxide agrees we are ready to move on
41:02 <CosmicRay> Is there any discussion?
41:04 <Dries_> IanJackson, I've read that a few weeks ago, but I'll make sure to read it again and to become familiar with all the details
41:09 <mako> sounds good
41:11 <Hydroxide> ah, he did read it. even better.
41:15 * cdlu thinks this meeting is gavelable
41:16 <BrandenRobinson> CosmicRay: sounds good to me
41:19 <CosmicRay> [closing] We are adjourned until February 1, 2005 at 19:00 UTC.
41:20 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*

- ---
David Graham, SPI Secretary
cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org D5F45889
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