Minutes for December 7th, 2004

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From: David Graham - SPI Secretary <cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
To: spi-announce(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
Subject: Minutes for December 7th, 2004
Date: 2005-03-01 20:06:18
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The following minutes were adopted by the Board of Directors of Software
in the Public Interest at its meeting of February 1st, 2005.

1. Meeting opened at 19:00 UTC on December 7th, 2004 and took place in
#spi on irc.spi-inc.org


2. Roll Call

Board members in attendance [Name (nick) (role)]:

Board members present:
John Goerzen (CosmicRay) (President)
David Graham (cdlu) (Secretary)
Benj. Mako Hill (mako) (Vice President)
Jimmy Kaplowitz (Hydroxide) (Treasurer)
Bdale Garbee (bdale)
Ian Jackson (IanJackson)
Martin Schulze (JoeySPY)
Branden Robinson (Overfiend)
Bruce Perens (BrucePerens) * Did not participate

No members were absent

Registered guests present

Michael Schultheiss (schultmc)
Giacomo Catenazzi (cate)
Drew Scott Daniels (mlots)
MJ Ray (slef)


3. President's update

No president's update was presented.


4. Treasurer's report

The text of the treasurer's report is included as Appendix C.


There was general concensus that the Treasurer should use his budget
allocation to hire a professional bookkeeper to assist in his duties, and
that the current balances of our accounts should be divided up into whose
monies they are. Using a guesstimate that everyone can agree too, the
distribution of our funds should be more accurately kept for the future.

Further discussion about the structure of the treasurer's report was


5. Outstanding minutes for November 9th, 2004

The minutes were amended unanimously to remove a statement in the section
on the treasurer's report. The minutes, as amended, were voted on.

Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
David Graham Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Ian Jackson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes
Benjamin Mako Hill Yes
Bruce Perens Did not vote

The minutes for November 9th, 2004 were accepted by a vote of 8 for, none


6. Resolution 2004-11-08.iwj.1: GNUstep as Associated Project

Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
David Graham Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Ian Jackson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes
Benjamin Mako Hill Yes
Bruce Perens Did not vote

Resolution 2004-11-08.iwj.1 was accepted by a vote of 8 for, none against.


7. New project request: OpenC++

This item was deferred indefinitely, pending any response to our inquiries
sent to the OpenC++ project.


8. The next meeting was set to January 4th, 2005 (John Goerzen)

The meeting ended at 19:36:03 UTC.


Appendix A: Current Board Membership

Date elected Name Role
[2003-03-11] John Goerzen President
[2003-03-11] Benjamin Mako Hill Vice President
[2003-11-29] David Graham Secretary
[2004-02-20] Jimmy Kaplowitz Treasurer
[2004-07-29] Bdale Garbee
[2004-07-29] Branden Robinson
[2003-11-29] Ian Jackson
[2003-03-11] Bruce Perens
[2003-11-29] Martin "Joey" Schulze


Appendix B: Approved Resolutions

Resolution 2004-11-08.iwj.1: GNUstep as Associated Project


1. GNUstep is a substantial and significant Free Software project.

2. The GNUstep developers would like SPI to take donations for
purposes related to GNUstep.


3. GNUstep is formally invited to become an SPI Associated Project,
according to the SPI Framework for Associated Projects,
SPI Resolution 1998-11-16.iwj.1-amended-2004-08-10.iwj.1,
a copy of which can be found at

4. The GNUstep maintainer, Adam Fedor, is recognised by SPI as the
current authoritative decisionmaker in the GNUstep project.

5. This invitation will lapse, if not accepted, 60 days after it
is approved by the SPI Board.


Appendix C: Treasurer's Report

All of the account balances and recent mail traffic at the Indianapolis
PO box have been mentioned by Branden in the thoroughly detailed
snail-mail roundups which he emailed to these lists within the last 24
hours. I will simply consider those messages part of this report
instead of repeating them here. This reduces my report to updates on the
Providence PO box and on the process of opening a new bank account with
the First Internet Bank of Indiana ("FirstIB" or "First IB"). I
apologize that this report is sent not much more than 10 hours before
the meeting, but it is more thoughtful and planned than any impromptu
report I could give during the meeting, and all of you can review it
between now and our meeting time.

Providence PO box
- -----------------

Amazingly enough, I haven't received any mail at all at that address for
several months. There is one close call worth mentioning, however. On
November 24, when routinely checking the box, I found it had been closed
the previous day for nonpayment. I don't know what happened, since I
made sure to check it every few weeks, with once a month as a bare
minimum. (It is certain that the frequency with which I check the box
has gone down since it stopped receiving any mail whatsoever, but I was
trying to check it often enough to avoid a mishap like this.)

The puzzling thing is that the post office said they tried to contact me
via phone before closing the box, but somehow their communication never
got through. (I forget, but they may have used email too.) In any case,
I paid the $34 for the next six months, for which I will reimburse
myself out of the Treasurer's budget, and the box is open again. They
assured me that no mail was lost or returned to sender as a result of
this lapse, so no further action should be necessary. I have ensured
that they now have my cell phone number and Treasurer email address to
enable them to contact me in the future.

In order to prevent the box from lapsing again, I have set my computer
to email the Treasurer email address (which reaches Branden and me) on
April 15, two weeks before the next expiration date of May 1. With that
reminder, I should be sure to get to the post office and renew the box,
and if I don't then Branden will also have a reminder to nag me.

I will check the box again this week, and I expect to find a copy of a
form from our Secretary, David Graham (on which I talk more below).

Opening an account with First IB
- --------------------------------

There were two forms that had to be completed as part of our FirstIB
business account application. One of them (the main application) I
partially filled out and sent electronically to Branden, who completed
the form. The other form (a corporate resolution form) I partially
filled out and sent electronically to David, who completed it and sent
paper copies to John Goerzen (our President), Branden, and me. Branden
will hand-deliver both of these forms to First IB today (Tuesday
December 7). He will include our initial deposit of checks to inaugurate
the account, which have a total amount of $10,686.81 according to

I realize this initial balance is significantly more than our target
maximum of $5000 for this account, but more checks built up than we
expected due to how long it took for the account paperwork to be
completed. We will transfer most of that excess to the American Express
Financial Advisors account or use it to pay outstanding reimbursements,
unless we can resolve in the near future those concerns that first made
us want to limit our balance with First IB. (Those concerns are spelled
out in the minutes of our October 5, 2004 meeting.)


Appendix D: Meeting log

00:07 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*
00:14 <CosmicRay> [item 1, opening] This meeting of the Board of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., is called to order.
00:19 <CosmicRay> PLEASE NOTE: Our agenda for today, AND all the resolutions and minutes we will be voting on, are online at:
00:26 <CosmicRay> http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/
00:30 <CosmicRay> [item 2, roll call] Board members, please state your name for the record. Others present may /msg cdlu if you wish to be listed in the records.
00:35 <cdlu> guests, please /msg me your full name for the record.
00:38 <Hydroxide> Jimmy Kaplowitz
00:41 <CosmicRay> John Goerzen
00:43 <cdlu> David Graham
01:27 <CosmicRay> hello????
01:28 <bdale> Bdale Garbee
01:42 <cdlu> CosmicRay, we both lose
01:44 <IanJackson> Ian Jackson.
01:53 <CosmicRay> Overfiend: ping
02:01 <cdlu> JoeySPY, are you here?
02:01 <CosmicRay> who else...
02:10 <Overfiend> whoops
02:11 <cdlu> mako, poke
02:16 <Overfiend> Branden Robinson
02:16 <JoeySPY> I wouldn't have joined if I wouldn't.
02:38 <CosmicRay> that's 7 by my count.
02:43 <CosmicRay> We have 9 board members, so quorum for today is 6.
02:43 <cdlu> let the record show that JoeySPI is Martin Schulze's nick-du-jour.
02:58 <cdlu> JoeySPY rather
03:04 <CosmicRay> We have received no regrets today.
03:12 <CosmicRay> [item 3, president's update]
03:12 <CosmicRay> Nothing to report that will not be discussed under other items.
03:12 <CosmicRay> [item 4, treasurer's report] Jimmy and Branden submitted an update.
03:12 <CosmicRay> Is there any discussion?
03:23 <BrandenRobinson> Bruce's absence should not be counted against him. I am sure he's doing something dreadfully important for the entire community which has earned him the esteemed position he holds. :)
03:38 <IanJackson> cr: Yes, I think there are things to be discussed.
04:02 <CosmicRay> ok, go ahead
04:19 <IanJackson> I'd like to thank Jimmy for his report so far, but I concur with Bdale
04:34 <IanJackson> (As he writes a few minutes ago to -board)
04:46 <BrandenRobinson> Says the guy who campaigned long and hard AGAINST paying a bookkeeper last year.
04:55 <IanJackson> Do we want to discuss that now or shall we vote on accepting the report as it is and take it offline ?
04:56 <bdale> yep, sorry about being so last-minute, but I was on a teleconf all morning and responded as soon as I saw the thread
05:00 <BrandenRobinson> When did you set foot on the road to Damascus?
05:10 <IanJackson> br: When events showed that I was wrong.
05:41 * cdlu makes a note on a calendar
05:43 <BrandenRobinson> Maybe if you'd listened to what I was saying, we wouldn't have had to experience those "events".
05:54 <Hydroxide> no need to argue over that now, branden/ian...
06:02 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: I'm not amused.
06:09 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: neither am I :(
06:13 <CosmicRay> There is no point in laying blame for past events
06:16 <cdlu> Hydroxide, you have the budget for it, would you consider getting a bookkeeper?
06:16 <Hydroxide> exactly
06:17 <CosmicRay> the question before us is how to move forward
06:21 <cdlu> that budget is to be used as you see fit
06:30 <Hydroxide> cdlu: yes, we can definitely do that. it's a reasonable idea.
06:34 <IanJackson> branden: This is not about me vs you or me vs Jimmy.
06:45 <CosmicRay> While I completely concur with the concerns expressed, a mandate without support seems to me but a recipe for losing another treasurer.
06:56 <IanJackson> hy: Is there anything you need from us to deliver what Bdale asks for ?
07:11 <bdale> CosmicRay: what support do you think is lacking?
07:26 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: in terms of necessary authority, I already have that assuming it doesn't go over my budget
07:40 <CosmicRay> bdale: It's a *lot* of work to go over all old paperwork just to come up with some balances
07:42 <IanJackson> Right. Obviously you can consult informally by email.
07:50 <cdlu> Hydroxide, I suggest that you look into finding a bookkeeper to help you that you and Branden can agree on within your budget
07:55 <CosmicRay> bdale: I suspect we need either more people to devote a lot of time to it, or some professional assistance
07:56 <bdale> CosmicRay: read my lastest email yet?
07:57 <cdlu> if you need more money, tell the board and we can allocate more funds
08:02 <CosmicRay> bdale: I haven't seen it
08:02 <BrandenRobinson> CR: well, in principle that's a matter of paying the bookkeeper for as many hours as it takes to do it
08:07 <IanJackson> cr: Indeed. As Bdale says, `I'd be nearly as happy with an educated guess at what the current distribution of funds among projects should be, combined with careful accounting going forward, ...'
08:08 <Hydroxide> *nod*
08:13 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: I have no problem with that
08:15 <BrandenRobinson> CR: I got an estimate on this last July.
08:21 <BrandenRobinson> er, rather July 2003
08:30 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: I'd be OK with that too.
08:32 <BrandenRobinson> Got and delivered to the Board, I might add.
08:37 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: assuming Debian concurs
08:38 <Hydroxide> I'd be happy to use a bookkeeper or to do the "educated guess and be careful going forward" method that is also being mentioned now
08:47 <Hydroxide> either way is fine
09:00 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: We could resurrect my proposed GR from last year.
09:00 <IanJackson> hy: Excellent, that would go a long way.
09:10 <IanJackson> We can sort out the historical stuff later if we really want to.
09:13 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: Use it as a baseline and let people rip it up.
09:18 <bdale> I think we can figure out a distribution of the current funds in reasonable order that Debian would accept, as long as everyone understands we're committed to getting this right going forward.
09:26 <CosmicRay> I would say that we ought to get Debian's support first. I believe they are the only member project effected.
09:34 <IanJackson> But there's no point trying to carry out an audit of past stuff if we're just going to lose the answers by being disorganised afterwards.
09:35 <CosmicRay> bdale: I'd be happy with that.
10:11 <Hydroxide> *nod* I would be fine with being rigorous about using a gnucash spreadsheet or some such, probably synchronized via version control with branden, so that we can properly track our financial transactions and produce proper reports
10:24 <CosmicRay> that's true to. branden, hydroxide: if we got a solid starting point, is there anything else you guys need to keep it under control?
10:38 <BrandenRobinson> Hydroxide: Agreed. My main beef with the criticisms that people levy is that they're completely unstructured.
10:49 <IanJackson> Right. My point is not that we need to know how you do it, but we want it done. If you say you can and will provide it then I'm happy.
10:52 <BrandenRobinson> People write solid paragraphs of bitching, but offer little in the way of what they'd like to *see* concretely.
10:59 <Hydroxide> I think the criticisms (many but not all) are quite valid
11:04 <Hydroxide> and I'm willing to listen to them
11:05 <IanJackson> br: Have you read Bdale's latest message ?
11:06 <bdale> to be clear, I don't actually care who slits envelopes and does the transaction work, but experience suggests this is not something a volunteer should be counted on to do forever.
11:21 <BrandenRobinson> I.e., if you want me to be a trained monkey, treat me like one. Prep up the form you want to see, and I'll fill in the blanks.
11:30 <bdale> and once we're at a sufficient scale, it makes perfect sense to pay someone to do that sort of grunt work
11:35 <IanJackson> Having been mostly on the other side of this argument last time, I agree with bdale that paid help for the routine stuff is sensible.
11:47 <BrandenRobinson> But I'm getting nothing but grief and scorn for my snail mail reports lately.
11:54 <CosmicRay> OK. For the immediate future then, we have rough consensus to discuss making a solid estimate with the Debian folks, then producing real treasurer reports from then on?
11:55 <BrandenRobinson> So obviously something needs to change.
11:58 <Hydroxide> BrandenRobinson: I think most people like those very much ... I certainly do
12:03 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: fwiw those reports are good.
12:03 <BrandenRobinson> Well, actually, the officers have been supportive.
12:06 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: please accept my praise for the snail mail reports.
12:17 <IanJackson> br: Please, this is _not_ about your reports. They're good. They're just not what we want from our Treasurer. Please keep doing them.
12:30 <Hydroxide> CosmicRay: yes. I think that once we make an "educated guess" in concert with Debian then we can be more careful going forward.
12:39 <cdlu> Branden, if they aren't bitching, they aren't reading.
12:40 <BrandenRobinson> I mean, until I get my scanner working, I am giving you guys just about the information that flows in to me.
12:54 <BrandenRobinson> As far as a list of assets goes -- that's a good question.
12:55 <IanJackson> I would prefer if we proved that we could produce a statement of _what we know_ now and _what happens_ as it happens.
13:06 <Hydroxide> CosmicRay: and if we find we are getting overwhelmed or don't have time to do the routine stuff then we will get a bookkeeper
13:08 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: understood. but that's not what a treasurer's report is / should be. we've talked about this before.
13:09 <BrandenRobinson> Apart from the actual cash, I don't think that's ever been carefully tracked.
13:15 <CosmicRay> I think it would also be wise for those interested to make specific suggestions about what they want to see in the report. Things like monies received, sent, checking/investment account balances, debian/spi/whatever balances, etc.
13:22 <IanJackson> When we've proved for some months that we have a stable system that works, we can think about going to Debian and the other projects and asking them to carve up the mystery pie.
13:52 <IanJackson> I would like to see what Bdale asks for in his first big paragraph in his message of Tue Dec 07 18:58:27 GMT 2004.
14:00 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: we can't make a real report without knowing what the balances are to start with
14:03 <BrandenRobinson> E.g., John Hasler made a good suggestion, correcting my broken use of accounting terminology, but his tone is such that he seems very frustrated. And yet apart from telling me the term is "cash receipts", he doesn't offer much in the way of suggestions.
14:08 <bdale> if it would help, I can probably scare up an example of what I think we want/need. however, this really is "standard stuff" that any good book on accounting at a local library would explain.
14:12 <BrandenRobinson> It is this sort of criticism that is really wearing me out.
14:34 <BrandenRobinson> It just seems to be a kind of free-floating despair with the finances.
14:49 <BrandenRobinson> I think that's a poisonous attitude. Roll up your sleeves and help. Jimmy and I could use it.
14:51 <IanJackson> Branden, please accept that we're not criticising you !
14:56 <bdale> CosmicRay: there's no reason we can't start reporting expense and income summaries even if the absolute value of the asset distribution among projects isn't known yet
15:15 <IanJackson> The way to do it would be to have a `Moneys whose earmark is unknown' account.
15:17 <CosmicRay> bdale: true, but then you have what the snail reports are, basically.
15:25 <IanJackson> OK, how about this:
15:25 <bdale> CosmicRay: no.
15:47 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: good idea.
15:49 <Hydroxide> okay. next time I receive any donations or make any expenses for SPI, I'll start tracking them carefully with gnucash or similar, and get branden to use it too
15:51 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: Let me put it this way....
15:52 <IanJackson> I will volunteer to write an example of the Treasurer's report I would like to see and talk it over with Bdale, based on this month's info from Branden.
15:59 <bdale> CosmicRay: I apologize for the fact that you didn't have time to read my email prior to the meeting, it might have helped.
16:04 * mako is here
16:11 <mako> sorry i'm late
16:24 <CosmicRay> OK, let's see if we can wrap this up for right now.
16:25 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: Can a "proper" Treasurer's report be generated from my snail mail reports, given a specific format and some transformations? I.e., is there any data *missing*?
16:33 <BrandenRobinson> Apart from an enumeration of non-cash assets.
16:36 <BrandenRobinson> We know that's a problem.
16:43 <IanJackson> I'll do this soon enough that I can show it to everyone and we can discuss it and then Hy can have a go at preparing one for next month's meeting.
16:56 <IanJackson> br: That's difficult to tell, but I will find it when I attempt it.
17:00 <CosmicRay> It seems an example report from Ian & BDale would be helpful. and we need to start talking to Debian about an estimate.
17:02 <IanJackson> s/find it/find out/
17:06 <CosmicRay> do we have someone to volunteer to do that?
17:15 <IanJackson> cr: Can we wait with talking to Debian until we have a working accounting system ?
17:19 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: they seem to have all the required transaction data. I don't know if you or anyone else is actually doing any gnucash or paper ledger work, which is what I'd expect reports to be generated from.
17:27 * BrandenRobinson 's emphasis during his whole time on the SPI Board has been about information and communication.
17:29 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: suppose we could
17:35 <IanJackson> Otherwise we'll find in 3 months that our accounting was broken and we have to do it again. We've already done this once !
17:43 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: true
17:46 <bdale> CosmicRay: I think the DPL is sufficient to approve our estimate, fwiw.
17:49 <BrandenRobinson> It seems we need to move to the next level.
18:07 <IanJackson> Ledger> Exactly, we need a ongoing totals etc.
18:11 <CosmicRay> bdale: I agree
18:14 <IanJackson> s/need a/need/
18:15 <Hydroxide> the "next level" is gnucash or paper ledger work, and I'll start doing that the next time I have something to put in the ledger. I'll work with branden to get him up to speed on that.
18:33 <bdale> Hydroxide: and/or decide to hire a bookkeeper and then they do that work
18:45 <BrandenRobinson> Yeah, just expect me to have stupid questions, or experience SEGVs because I dare to use a non-x86 machine. :-/
18:57 * BrandenRobinson coughs *libcurl3*
19:10 * JoeySPY wonders if we could move on now that there is a progress path for the treasurer report now?
19:13 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: another good excuse to hire a bookkeeper? ;-)
19:23 <CosmicRay> ok, I would only add for the record that Jimmy submitted a statement; cdlu, can you include that in the final minutes?
19:25 *** Nick change: From JoeySPY to JoeySPI
19:26 <mako> in terms of a leger, pere showed me a piece of software that skolelinux is using
19:27 * cdlu says it again: the budget is there for a bookkeeper
19:29 <IanJackson> joey: Can someone first summarise what I think we've agreed ?
19:33 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: if we can choke down MS Money format, sure :)
19:43 <IanJackson> s/I think/they think/
19:46 <bdale> I'd like to thank Branden for his snail mail reports and Jimmy for his report this month, on the record.
20:01 <mako> it's a pretty simple ledger software that is mostly gered toward being transparent and showing what money is spent on to users
20:02 <IanJackson> Indeed so. I move we accept Jimmy's report this month and thank both of them for their reports.
20:02 <cdlu> CosmicRay, if the board agrees, I will include the Treasurer's report in its entirety, in whatever form it comes, as an Appendix to the minutes.
20:06 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: I believe that you and bdale have agreed to produce an example report for comment. Hydroxide will attempt to use that format next month, and establish a gnucash system with Branden.
20:13 <mako> i'm not sure it's a *replacement* for another program but i think it would be a good addition
20:25 <bdale> IanJackson: based on statements, I'll expect you to generate a draft that we can then discuss.
20:27 <mako> BrandenRobinson, Hydroxide: would you guys be interested in checking it out?
20:32 <IanJackson> bdale: Right.
20:40 <bdale> CosmicRay: agreed, then
20:40 <IanJackson> gnucash> That's up to Hy.
20:43 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: CR is essentially right, yes ... I'll at least try to include all the information in your example report
20:47 <IanJackson> Right.
20:50 <BrandenRobinson> mako: I think I'll need Hydroxide to take the lead on that, but sure.
20:51 <CosmicRay> ok, ready to move on?
20:58 <Hydroxide> mako: please send information about it to treasurer@
20:59 <IanJackson> No.
21:01 <bdale> Hydroxide: I'll be happy to consult if you have questions
21:12 * BrandenRobinson already has several things on the TODO, all nuts-and-bolts issues (see purcel:~branden/TODO
21:12 <mako> Hydroxide, BrandenRobinson: i'll forward pere's message now.. i think it's a good option
21:14 <Hydroxide> bdale: *nod* okay
21:18 <CosmicRay> what remains, ian?
21:20 <IanJackson> There are two things left undecided. Firstly, I would like to formally accept the reports and thank Jimmy and Branden.
21:40 * BrandenRobinson thinks his empahsis needs to remain on the nuts and bolts until a bit of the backlog is cleared and/or we get more volunteers to help.
21:43 <IanJackson> Secondly, I would like the minutes to reflect that the board encourages Hy to strongly consider hiring professional bookkeeping help.
21:51 <slef> Point of info - not impressed with gnucash for clubs myself, but someone on planet debian mentioned another accounting package but I've lost the link (ahem).
21:54 * BrandenRobinson points out the "Action items" section of the new snail mail reports.
22:01 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: I would concur with that.
22:10 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: *nod*, and I will keep that option strongly in consideration going forward
22:20 <CosmicRay> are we now ready to move on?
22:23 <mako> slef: the one that pere uses is called "open economy" i think but it's mostly gered toward showing a membership something with more transparency
22:25 <bdale> group hug!
22:26 <bdale> CosmicRay: yes
22:30 * BrandenRobinson is ready. Thanks for the thanks, guys.
22:30 <cdlu> bdale, heh
22:36 <CosmicRay> [item 5, outstanding minutes] We have minutes from November 9, 2004 to approve.
22:41 <CosmicRay> I am aware of a request to amend the wording regarding the treasurer's statement. Is there discussion?
22:42 <IanJackson> Does anyone object to (a) the acceptance of the reports and thanks to Jimmy, or (b) encouraging Jimmy to strongly consider paid help ?
22:55 <BrandenRobinson> (It didn't help my mood that I just encountered the stupidest critical-severity bug in Debian I've ever seen.)
23:01 <cdlu> Ian, I have no objection but I don't think b needs a vote.
23:04 <IanJackson> cr: I have a comment regarding that too, I'm afraid.
23:04 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: I heard no objections
23:11 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: ok, go ahead
23:14 <IanJackson> cdlu: Indeed, if no-one objects then no vote needed.
23:15 <IanJackson> cr: Ta.
23:36 <IanJackson> The sentence `Bdale Garbee ...' is redundant given `No Treasurer's Report was available'.
23:59 <cdlu> please note that the most up to date version of the minutes is the one linked from the agenda
24:02 <IanJackson> I would suggest that removing it makes the whole thing less personal and doesn't detract from the statement that there wasn't a proper report. Bdale, do you agree ?
24:02 <mako> IanJackson: no objections
24:11 <bdale> I'm easy
24:20 <IanJackson> Right, aside from that I have no comment on the minutes.
24:27 <CosmicRay> OK, any other comments?
24:30 <cdlu> change made
24:34 * BrandenRobinson seconds Ian...okay
24:34 <BrandenRobinson> :)
24:38 <CosmicRay> then let's vote on accepting the Nov 9 minutes as amended.
24:40 <CosmicRay> !vote start
24:40 <bolt> Starting a new vote
24:42 <JoeySPI> slef: This one? http://adam.rosi-kessel.org/weblog/free_software/gnucash_days.html
24:43 <cdlu> !vote yes
24:43 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
24:43 <IanJackson> !vote yes
24:43 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
24:47 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
24:47 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
24:53 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
24:53 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
24:55 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
24:55 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
24:57 <bdale> !vote yes
24:57 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
24:58 <JoeySPI> !vote yes
24:59 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JoeySPI
25:11 <cdlu> who are we missing?
25:12 <BrandenRobinson> JoeySPI: someone broke a stem off your Y...
25:15 <IanJackson> cdlu, JFYI, we can do minute acceptance by acclamation (`does anyone object, no, good, unanimous') too, if it's more convenient.
25:16 <mako> !vote yes
25:16 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
25:21 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: BrucePerens.
25:27 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
25:27 <bolt> vote result: yes. 8 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
25:38 <cdlu> ian, it's actually more convenient to vote on things - a lot easier to read after when sorting the minutes
25:42 <IanJackson> cdlu: OK.
25:46 <CosmicRay> [item 6, GNUStep as associated project]
25:52 <CosmicRay> We have resolution 2004-11-08.iwj.1 pending. Is there any discussion?
26:08 <bdale> voting also gives a clear indication of whether everyone involved is still present
26:10 * Hydroxide is satisfied by the prior discussion at the last meeting and on the mailing list
26:11 <cdlu> in light of the discussion so far on list, I am fully in support of it
26:13 <IanJackson> bdale: True.
26:21 <CosmicRay> cdlu: I agree
26:22 <IanJackson> Clearly, I'm happy with it.
26:23 * BrandenRobinson supports extending this invitation to GNUStep.
26:25 <slef> JoeySPI: http://www.grisbi.org/ (thanks mako)
26:35 <CosmicRay> ok, it sounds like we're ready to vote then?
26:41 <cdlu> yes
26:44 <CosmicRay> This vote is on 2004-11-08.iwj.1.
26:44 <bdale> this is the gnustep one?
26:46 <Hydroxide> yes
26:47 <CosmicRay> !vote start
26:47 <bolt> Starting a new vote
26:47 <IanJackson> Yes.
26:48 <IanJackson> !vote yes
26:48 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
26:48 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: yes
26:48 <CosmicRay> bdale: yes
26:50 <cdlu> !vote yes
26:50 <mako> !vote yes
26:50 <bolt> Noted yes vote from mako
26:50 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
26:52 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
26:52 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
26:53 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
26:53 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
26:53 <bdale> !vote yes
26:53 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
26:54 <Hydroxide> !vote yes
26:54 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Hydroxide
26:55 <JoeySPI> !vote yes
26:55 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JoeySPI
27:14 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
27:14 <bolt> vote result: yes. 8 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
27:21 <CosmicRay> [item 7, OpenC++] Still looks deferred. Is there any update?
27:22 <BrandenRobinson> CR: Can I ask if we have a representative of GNUStep here?
27:24 <IanJackson> No.
27:25 <cdlu> 2004-11-08.iwj.1 is now law!
27:41 <cdlu> Branden, yes
27:42 <cdlu> slef
27:43 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: I don't know if we do... I'm not aware of anyone
27:53 <slef> BrandenRobinson: I am a webmaster, but not really authorised for much.
28:02 <BrandenRobinson> Can I have the floor for a moment to ask slef a...oh, well, maybe not :)
28:07 <slef> also, inactivish lately
28:20 <slef> but know facts some
28:29 * BrandenRobinson just wanted to know if GNUStep is going to want us to hold funds for them (a la Debian), or pay them out instead (a la wxWidgets)
28:41 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: we can always e-mail adam and ask
28:50 * Hydroxide agrees with CR
28:52 <BrandenRobinson> yeah, but I tend to think of these things in meetings :)
28:56 <slef> take donations and make payments, AIUI
28:59 <BrandenRobinson> just for the record then. I yield.
29:07 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: I'm inclined to let you and hydroxide just work out those details
29:11 <BrandenRobinson> ok
29:14 <IanJackson> What cr said.
29:14 <mako> cdlu: i have a short announcement to make as well
29:25 <cdlu> CosmicRay, mako has a short announcement. :)
29:33 <CosmicRay> mako: might as well make it :-)
29:37 <Hydroxide> :)
29:38 <CosmicRay> while we're paused
29:40 <mako> CosmicRay: are we at the end of other things?
29:48 <CosmicRay> no we have the openC++ thing yet
29:53 <cdlu> mako, save for scheduling next meeting (jan 4 2005)
30:03 * IanJackson twiddles his thumbs.
30:05 <mako> fine
30:15 <BrandenRobinson> even 30 minutes is not fast enough for iwj -- yeesh! :)
30:19 <Hydroxide> mako: make the announcement... (cdlu was saying that we're essentially done now)
30:19 <cdlu> CosmicRay, there's no movement on that. I think it can be deferred indefinitely unless we hear from them.
30:22 <mako> ok, so some folks from drupal found me and were interested in spi membership
30:22 <bdale> CosmicRay: openc++ defers, right?
30:25 <IanJackson> cdlu: Quite so.
30:28 <mako> or at least, were curious about it
30:29 <CosmicRay> bdale: as far as I know, yes.
30:52 <IanJackson> Deferred indefinitely, yes.
30:53 <mako> so i organized an irc meeting with a number of drupal developers and answered some questions about spi and what it can not do a few days ago
31:07 <CosmicRay> mako: sounds good
31:08 <IanJackson> Ah, hello. Nice of you to drop by :-).
31:12 * BrandenRobinson moves that we shelve the OpenC++ item permanently.
31:13 <mako> they still need to decide if spi is something they want
31:17 <BrucePerens> Bruce Perens. Sorry!
31:19 <JoeySPI> mako, which country were they from?
31:22 <BrandenRobinson> If/when they contact us again, we can un-shelve it.
31:28 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: fine by me
31:33 <cdlu> Bruce, you missed the excitement. welcome aboard. :)
31:34 <mako> JoeySPI: they are from all over
31:35 <JoeySPI> They've also contacted ffis but I guess that they build up an own association.
31:36 * Hydroxide agrees with Branden
31:42 <mako> JoeySPI: but the major major developer is in belgium i believe
31:42 <BrandenRobinson> No sense having it clutter the agenda if we're not going to be able to do anything with it.
31:51 <IanJackson> mako: Thanks for that. If they decide they like us, can you send an email so we can read up on them and think about it, etc. ?
31:51 <mako> JoeySPI: at least the guy who contacted me
31:56 <JoeySPI> icx
31:59 <JoeySPI> -x
32:05 <mako> IanJackson: i believe someone should finish a writeup from the meeting
32:05 <JoeySPI> noX, as usual :P
32:06 <cdlu> CosmicRay, I think OpenC++ is adequately beaten into the dirt if you want to declare it closed
32:08 <mako> IanJackson: i can forward that to an spi list
32:14 <CosmicRay> cdlu: consider it closed.
32:20 <IanJackson> mako: Right, we'll see that, that's good. So no action needed now.
32:28 <IanJackson> Can we get onto date of next meeting then ?
32:34 <mako> as i undestand, there are some people who prefer an LLC or something and some others who prefer the SPI nonprofit model
32:46 <CosmicRay> is there any other business before we discuss our next meeting?
32:48 <mako> but if they want a C3, they'll probably pursue spi
32:49 <IanJackson> mako: We can go into that in detail nicely by email.
32:56 <mako> IanJackson: yeah, i just wanted to give people the heads up
33:02 <IanJackson> Thanks.
33:04 <mako> also, i signed a form on behalf of SPI for intel
33:07 <mako> who is donating a machine to Debian
33:14 <Hydroxide> cool
33:22 <IanJackson> What kind of form ?
33:23 <mako> i have a copy to send to cdlu, and to Hydroxide probably
33:43 <mako> IanJackson: intel wanted something from spi to say they have donated the machine to debian
33:53 <mako> tbm coordinated with greg pomerantz who found me and got me to sign it
34:08 <bdale> that means they actually do the tax deduction paperwork on donations, I suspect
34:18 <CosmicRay> probably so
34:20 <mako> it's basically just a donation to debian but in this case it required a signature
34:25 <mako> bdale: yes
34:26 <CosmicRay> are we ready to move on?
34:28 <Hydroxide> mako: *nod* branden has most of the paperwork of that sort right now, but I'll be willing to take it too if you prefer. if you're lacking either of our PO boxes, let me know. of course, an electronic copy would work too.
34:31 <IanJackson> I see. SPI can't `donate [something] to Debian' because Debian doesn't legally exist.
34:40 <mako> i have three copies of the form now :)
34:55 <BrandenRobinson> IanJackson: According to Bruce, Debian legally exists as much as anything does :)
34:55 <CosmicRay> [item 8, next meeting] Our next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, January 4, 2005.
34:56 <IanJackson> Can you send mail to the list with a copy of or link to the form ?
35:00 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: exactly. the form seems to be a receipt and nothing more, which is fine.
35:01 <bdale> IanJackson: right, part of why SPI exists is to give folks like Intel those acks of donations so they can get the tax writeoff.
35:10 <cdlu> mako, ok. for future sanity, anyone who signs anything on behalf of SPI should email an FYI to board@ ASAP so it doesn't slip through the cracks.
35:10 <IanJackson> bd: Quite so.
35:13 <mako> IanJackson: yes, i'll just forward the pdf to the board
35:15 <BrandenRobinson> yeah, let's talk about hot-babe in this meeting. I don't think enough words have been spoken yet on that subject. :-P
35:19 <BrucePerens> To be correct, Debian is an unincorporated association, with a legal existence but not a very robust one.
35:23 <mako> cdlu: ok, sounds good
35:23 <IanJackson> mako: In advance would be better next time.
35:28 <mako> IanJackson: right
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> January 2005
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> 1
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
35:39 <BrandenRobinson> 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
35:41 <BrandenRobinson> 30 31
35:43 <CosmicRay> ok. January 4?
35:45 <cdlu> January 4th is fine with me
35:46 <IanJackson> Jan 4 is fine for me.
35:52 <BrandenRobinson> Acceptable to me, too.
35:55 * mako nods
35:55 <CosmicRay> ok then...
35:58 <Hydroxide> IanJackson: I don't think a formal board notification is necessary for tax receipts
36:00 <bdale> 4th is ok with me
36:03 <CosmicRay> [closing] We are adjourned until January 4, 2005 at 19:00 UTC.
36:07 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*

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David Graham, SPI Secretary
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