Re: SPI branch in Spain

Hello!

There are an option of obtaining a big donation in Spain for Debian.
The main problem is the lack of a proper organization to receive the
money. That's why some of the Spanish developers are thinking a way
to handle this. We would like to find a way which could be used for
other donations, as it has happened before that some donations have
been very problematic to be received.

I have been reading the Spanish laws about this issue, and I think
that there are these options:

1. Use ffis e.V. in Germany. That has problems with the fees
charged by banks and as I understand from the laws I have read, no
tax deduction. I'm not completely sure about this, as that is a EU
issue which could be in other diferrent law, but as I read the law,
you have to register also in Spain to have the tax exemptions.

2. Create a different asocciaton here like ffis e.V. with a bank
account and handle ourselves the donation. This new association
could be created as SPI España, to be able to receive also possible
donations to other projects under SPI umbrella, as GNOME or OFTC.

3. Register SPI also in Spain. This way SPI could open a bank
account here and benefit from donations directly under the control
of the SPI Treasurer, or a delegate here in Spain. The account
could be created in a bank offering Internet operations (only in
Spanish). The thing that is more problematic with this is that it's
needed a signed act where the foreign association agrees to open
the delegation here. Also it's needed the documentation that probes
that the association has been legally constituted in the US. This
means some snail mail.

Comments, suggestions?

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:

> 3. Register SPI also in Spain. This way SPI could open a bank
> account here and benefit from donations directly under the control

is there any EU way to deal with this forgoing openining an account in
every country?

--
Scott Dier <dieman(at)ringworld(dot)org> http://www.ringworld.org/

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:09:40PM -0600, Scott Dier - dieman wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
>
> > 3. Register SPI also in Spain. This way SPI could open a bank
> > account here and benefit from donations directly under the control
>
> is there any EU way to deal with this forgoing openining an account in
> every country?

I haven't found anywhere that associations registered in an EU country are
automatically recognized in Spain, about tax deductions. The current law which
is from March 2002, so it should have get any EU directive if any
about this, and only recognizes the ability for foreign associations
to open a delegation in Spain.

The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.

Greetings

PS: I'm subscribed, so there's no need to CC me. Thanks :)

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> I haven't found anywhere that associations registered in an EU country are
> automatically recognized in Spain, about tax deductions. The current law which

Could you register in Spain but use the existing German account?

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 04:40:45PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > I haven't found anywhere that associations registered in an EU country are
> > automatically recognized in Spain, about tax deductions. The current law which
>
> Could you register in Spain but use the existing German account?

I think that capitals can flow freely now within Europe, so it could
be used this account. The problem is that ay Spanish association is
required to mantain a sane contability of their financial status, as
required by the law in back of the tax reduction. I think that's quite
complicated if sharing that account with other different association.
And this also means that fees for transferring money are still high.

So, IMO using that account brings more problems than not using it.

I have also thought on the problem of having a lot of accounts in
different countries, but as I see it, this is the only way to reduce
transfer fees (or to travel with the money in your pocket from one
ountry to the other ;)

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

Previously Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> I haven't found anywhere that associations registered in an EU country are
> automatically recognized in Spain, about tax deductions. The current
> law which is from March 2002, so it should have get any EU directive
> if any about this, and only recognizes the ability for foreign
> associations to open a delegation in Spain.

ffis (if I remember the name correctly) is a German organisation that
you might be able to use. They already hold funds for Debian.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> http://www.wiggy.net/
A random hacker

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
> high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
> high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
> pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
> this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.

I have heard (anybody to confirm) that bank fees will be reduced
starting on 1st July 2003 for the Euro zone. By this date a money transfer
between for example Spain and Germany should cost the same as a money transfer
from Spain to Spain.

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:59:45AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
> > high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
> > high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
> > pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
> > this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.
>
> I have heard (anybody to confirm) that bank fees will be reduced
> starting on 1st July 2003 for the Euro zone. By this date a money transfer
> between for example Spain and Germany should cost the same as a money transfer
> from Spain to Spain.

I can confirm that both for private and for commercial accounts
the fees for Electronic Money Transfer will be the same naitional
or within the EU (I checked explictely with Fortis on that one).

Condition is that the person that sends the money uses the
universal IBAN number for the account of the addressee of the
money. Of course, they compensate that with higher fees for all
money transfers.

Peter

> _______________________________________________
> Spi-general mailing list
> Spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> http://lists.spi-inc.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/spi-general

El día 10 ene 2003, Peter Vandenabeele escribía:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:59:45AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > > The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
> > > high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
> > > high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
> > > pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
> > > this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.
> >
> > I have heard (anybody to confirm) that bank fees will be reduced
> > starting on 1st July 2003 for the Euro zone. By this date a money transfer
> > between for example Spain and Germany should cost the same as a money transfer
> > from Spain to Spain.
>
> I can confirm that both for private and for commercial accounts
> the fees for Electronic Money Transfer will be the same naitional
> or within the EU (I checked explictely with Fortis on that one).
>
> Condition is that the person that sends the money uses the
> universal IBAN number for the account of the addressee of the
> money. Of course, they compensate that with higher fees for all
> money transfers.

But this doesn't solve tax issues.

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 02:57:11PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> El día 10 ene 2003, Peter Vandenabeele escribía:
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:59:45AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > > > The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
> > > > high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
> > > > high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
> > > > pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
> > > > this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.
> > >
> > > I have heard (anybody to confirm) that bank fees will be reduced
> > > starting on 1st July 2003 for the Euro zone. By this date a money transfer
> > > between for example Spain and Germany should cost the same as a money transfer
> > > from Spain to Spain.
> >
> > I can confirm that both for private and for commercial accounts
> > the fees for Electronic Money Transfer will be the same national
> > or within the EU (I checked explictely with Fortis on that one).
> >
> > Condition is that the person that sends the money uses the
> > universal IBAN number for the account of the addressee of the
> > money. Of course, they compensate that with higher fees for all
> > money transfers.
>
> But this doesn't solve tax issues.

What are exactly the "tax issues" ?

Do you want the donations to be tax-deductible, such as those to
a charity, such as e.g. the Red Cross ?

Do you want this to be the case in the single country of the EU
where the Not For Profit (SPI Spain in this case ?) is located
or all accross Europe ?

Do you have other tax issues ?

When I understand you request exactly, I could check with my
accountant on the exact status and conditions of that (but
maybe all that work already happened before I joined the
list ?).

Peter

El día 11 ene 2003, Peter Vandenabeele escribía:
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 02:57:11PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > El día 10 ene 2003, Peter Vandenabeele escribía:
> > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:59:45AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 11:18:18PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> > > > > The other problem is that bank fees for money transfers are quite
> > > > > high. Although they have reduced since Euro introduction, they're
> > > > > high and a big load for little donations. EU Comission is right now
> > > > > pressing banks to reduce them, so they will tend to be lower. Anyway,
> > > > > this leaves out any country out of the Euro zone.
> > > >
> > > > I have heard (anybody to confirm) that bank fees will be reduced
> > > > starting on 1st July 2003 for the Euro zone. By this date a money transfer
> > > > between for example Spain and Germany should cost the same as a money transfer
> > > > from Spain to Spain.
> > >
> > > I can confirm that both for private and for commercial accounts
> > > the fees for Electronic Money Transfer will be the same national
> > > or within the EU (I checked explictely with Fortis on that one).
> > >
> > > Condition is that the person that sends the money uses the
> > > universal IBAN number for the account of the addressee of the
> > > money. Of course, they compensate that with higher fees for all
> > > money transfers.
> >
> > But this doesn't solve tax issues.
>
> What are exactly the "tax issues" ?
>
> Do you want the donations to be tax-deductible, such as those to
> a charity, such as e.g. the Red Cross ?

I have been reading a bit more, and finally I have understood some
things I hadn't very clear.

> Do you want this to be the case in the single country of the EU
> where the Not For Profit (SPI Spain in this case ?) is located
> or all accross Europe ?

If we can create/reuse an association for the whole Europe, that's
much better, now that transfer fees are reduced to national levels (I
didn't kew if that was sure yet, or only a proposal). Other different
thing is if SPI prefers to stay with ffis (I don't have anything
personal against this), or create an European brach.

What I was wondering is if a donation made to ffis is tax deductable
as it's a donation to Red Cross, or not. As I read the Spanish law,
that could be made, as are recognized as so a lot of types of associations
(cultural, sports, scientific, investigation promotion, medioambiental
defense and others more aimed to disable people, or with other social
goals)

>
> Do you have other tax issues ?

No.

Thanks

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 03:53:10PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
[...]
> If we can create/reuse an association for the whole Europe, that's
> much better, now that transfer fees are reduced to national levels (I
> didn't kew if that was sure yet, or only a proposal).

I checked quickly and the system of tax deductible donations is different
per country. In the Belgian law, it is clear that only _Belgian_ NFP's
(Not For Profit's) with a cultural or social goal can receive tax-deductible
donations. In Belgium it is per year, minimum 30 EURO (since 2003) and max
(10% of income or 250,000 EURO whichever is less). In Holland, it is
between 1% and 10% of income (with a max on the income), with a franchise
of the first 1%.

One source I found is Amnesty International, that has well documented
web sites in each country about the fiscal effects (amnesty.be;
amnesty.nl; ...).

So, if tax deductible aspect is really important, it now seems to me that
it might be required to set-up a branch of the NFP in each European country.

[...]

Peter

> --
> Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
> jsogo(at)debian(dot)org