Re: [debian-knoppix] Open accounting and Open source

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:26:56AM -0400, Gilles Pelletier wrote:
> Recently I expressed concern about Knoppix's security because, since
> it's based on testing and unstable, security fixes often come out
> late. I was told that such was the deal: either you go into the pains
> of installing Debian and you have a secure system or you install
> Knoppix and you your system is... well, not so secure.
>
> Of course, if one intends to use Knoppix for the purpose it was
> designed -- i.e. as a Live-CD to pick up mail on a trip or to fix a
> broken down computer, etc. -- security is no concern. But since I had
> the project to offer people to install Knoppix on their computer for
> daily use, I've since had the worried times blues. Isn't there a way
> around this that would benefit both Knoppix and Debian?
>
> Some people have already asked Klaus -- well, I certainly did -- if
> there was a way they could financially contribute to Knoppix. Klaus
> answered that the best way was to send the money to Debian. I don't
> agree with this.
>
> Debian already receives some money though a company they've set up
> called "Software in the Public Interest, Inc." It seems to cather not
> only to Debian, but also to Fresco, GNOME -- GNOME, hear this
> Klaus!!!! :) -- LSB, OFTC, Open Source (.org) and GNU TeXmacs. How
> much, in what proportion, God knows.

SPI is not a company, but a non-profit organization as it's stated at
spi-inc.org main page.

If your donation is earmarked for Debian, all the money goes to
Debian. Anyway, I have CC'ed spi-general list so proper people can
answer you this better (Branden?)

> What we do know is that, though Debian has hundreds of developpers, it
> seems none of them found that devising a decent installation program
> was an endeavour worth undertaking. If Klaus Knopper wasn't born, the
> world would still be stuck with the fucked up Debian script for
> installation.

What's the problem with Debian's installation? It works quite well for
almost all people if you follow default steps. Anyway, FYI, a new
debian-installation system is being worked on. If you feel that Debian
needs a better (I suppose GUI based) installation system, your
contribution is welcomed.

And as I see, Knoppix doesn't "install" but copies a yet installed
system into your hard disk, which is a bit different concept.

>
> Upgrading packages is not a project apt to bring the author's name to
> the forefront. So people prefer to work on HURD or whatever. So I
> doubt that even money sent to Software... Inc. will bring the
> security fixes any faster.

Debian is made by volunteers, which focus on whatever they have
interest on. And people working in security are also volunteers which
have their lifes. If you want, you can contribute yourself or pay some
developers to work in security.

>
> It seems some things at Debian just won't move. During all his
> leadership, Ben Collins has tried to make "ready when it's ready" a
> wee bit earlier. He never succeeded.

Debian releases will be done when they're ready. If you need the new
bleeding edge latest software, you can use testing or unstable.

>
> I understand Klaus wants to keep Knoppix a geeks' project, not a
> business undertaking. He doesn't want to have anything to do with
> finance and end up, as is almost always the case, with his nose in
> the great book instead of in programs. He's competent enough to ask
> good wages and can gather enough money to make a living AND continue
> to have fun with Knoppix.
>
> Still, wouldn't it be great to have somebody paid to bring security
> fixes out asap? Wouldn't it get things moving faster at Debian too?
> Wouldn't this way of contributing to Knoppix also be a contribution
> to Debian worth so much more than sending the money directly?

As I told you, you can pay somebody directly to work on Debian
security fixes. Why is better to direct the money to Knoppix instead?

I'm not against Knoppix receiving money if it needs it and will use it
to improve the system, but I'm trying to show that there are other
ways to make it productive.

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

I'd like to see Klaus integrate his efforts closer into Debian. And the
trusted Debian folks. And Libranet. No doubt I'm leaving someone out. There's
no reason Klaus' stuff can't be optional packages in the main Debian tree.
That might help with some of the issues.

SPI is a 501(c)3 tax-exempt (in the US) non-profit. You can write your
donations off of your income when you do your taxes, this may save you
1/3 of what you donated. To get the tax status, we meet some stringent
criteria regarding the non-profit aspect of the organization.

Thanks

Bruce

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:25 am, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> ...
> As I told you, you can pay somebody directly to work on Debian
> security fixes. Why is better to direct the money to Knoppix instead?
>
> I'm not against Knoppix receiving money if it needs it and will use it
> to improve the system, but I'm trying to show that there are other
> ways to make it productive.

My take: I would also like to contribute as well but I am not
interested in GNOME and I quasi-resent Debians lack of installation
efforts over the years. It blows me away that 1 man + friends can
do what 500 developers can't... provide a focused, timely and
coherent system that is way more usable than a stock Debian
system. I've been using Debian for nearly 8 years (but still
can't build a package from scratch) but I would NOT reccommend
Debian by itself to other people but I do hand out Knoppix CDs
to first time linux users. If it was not for Knoppix I would
NOT be able to do this, as I would never foist a raw Debian
system upon a linux newbie as it would be counter productive.

** It is absolutely unreasonable to expect folks should become
software engineers to be able to surf the web via linux. **

The fact that Klaus is not a regular Debian developer and that
Debian have not adopted the Knoppix installation procedure,
as is, tells me there is some kind of technical AND political
schism between the two.

So I would like to put whatever meagre resources I can spare
into the system I have confidence in sharing with other people
and that happens to be Knoppix rather than Debian itself.

Klaus and friends, thank you most sincerely for your efforts.

--markc

From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> My take: I would also like to contribute as well but I am not
> interested in GNOME and I quasi-resent Debians lack of installation
> efforts over the years.

So, the installer we're talking about is a rewrite of one I did in 1996,
I think, which was itself a rewrite of one that Ian Murdock did in
ancient time. I think they entirely replaced my code without
substantially changing the user interaction. So, I can see why you would
be frustrated.

However, there has been good work on installation this year.

> ** It is absolutely unreasonable to expect folks should become
> software engineers to be able to surf the web via linux. **

Who was asking them?

> The fact that Klaus is not a regular Debian developer and that
> Debian have not adopted the Knoppix installation procedure,
> as is, tells me there is some kind of technical AND political
> schism between the two.

I've not been involved, so I wouldn't know. And I've not tried the
installed Klaus did. But one thing to look out for is genrality.
The Knoppix installer can't necessarily address the problem space
that the Debian installer must handle.

> So I would like to put whatever meagre resources I can spare
> into the system I have confidence in sharing with other people
> and that happens to be Knoppix rather than Debian itself.

One of the best things you could do would be to figure out how to
merge the changes of Knoppix back into Debian. But you may have to
invest more time into becoming a packager to handle that.

Thanks

Bruce

On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 09:58:27AM +1000, Mark Constable wrote:
> The fact that Klaus is not a regular Debian developer and that
> Debian have not adopted the Knoppix installation procedure,
> as is, tells me there is some kind of technical AND political
> schism between the two.

Cool, where can I find Knoppix for MIPS? I've seen it run on i386 and
it's absolutely awesome.

Michael

(Please, don't CC me on replies. I'm subscribed to both lists. Thanks)

El día 27 abr 2003, Bruce Perens escribía:
> I'd like to see Klaus integrate his efforts closer into Debian. And the
> trusted Debian folks. And Libranet. No doubt I'm leaving someone out. There's
> no reason Klaus' stuff can't be optional packages in the main Debian tree.
> That might help with some of the issues.

There are people working on this already. Sean Finney has made a list
of packages that are only in Knoppix and need to be included also in
Debian, even testing what are the problems for not being included
right now.

I think he can elaborate further on this, as I'm very busy lately and
I haven't been able to follow this as much as I'd like.

>
> SPI is a 501(c)3 tax-exempt (in the US) non-profit. You can write your
> donations off of your income when you do your taxes, this may save you
> 1/3 of what you donated. To get the tax status, we meet some stringent
> criteria regarding the non-profit aspect of the organization.

Thanks for you reply

--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo(at)debian(dot)org

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 05:22:04PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote:
> From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> > My take: I would also like to contribute as well but I am not
> > interested in GNOME and I quasi-resent Debians lack of installation
> > efforts over the years.
>
> So, the installer we're talking about is a rewrite of one I did in 1996,
> I think, which was itself a rewrite of one that Ian Murdock did in
> ancient time. I think they entirely replaced my code without
> substantially changing the user interaction. So, I can see why you would
> be frustrated.

Problem is, the first time I have used the Debian installer, I have
immediatly see it was perfect, and I still feel the same. It is one of
the main reason I am a Debian user and developer.

Of course, if you feel it is already perfect, you have few incentive to work
on improving it.

Cheers,
Bill.

I'm not sure if you have inspected the results of a Knoppix install
carefully but it is a completely different animal from the disk based
Debian installer. It offers no ability to selectively install portions
of the operating system. While this configuration is fine and well for
the adventuresome Linux beginner it is fairly impractical for any real
use in a production environment. The Knoppix install also has many
idiosyncracies that are presumably a result of its need to boot from a
read only file system and still provide a usable system. Copying Knoppix
onto a production server has, in my experience, created various odd
problems with the boot process.

The only schism I see here is one of technical goals. Knoppix is not, by
design, a Debian install system. It is a Debian derived OS that can boot
stand-alone off of a CD. That's cool, but that is not an installer.
Could it become an installer? Certainly, but not trivially. Some varient
of dpkg that could selectively mirror already installed packages to a
new system image would be just one of the necessary components.

If you, or Klaus, think that Knoppix should form the basis of a new
Debian installer then I say "awesome". However, I think you should focus
on the technical problems rather than an imagined political schism.

E

On Sun, 2003-04-27 at 18:58, Mark Constable wrote:
> My take: I would also like to contribute as well but I am not
> interested in GNOME and I quasi-resent Debians lack of installation
> efforts over the years. It blows me away that 1 man + friends can
> do what 500 developers can't... provide a focused, timely and
> coherent system that is way more usable than a stock Debian
> system. I've been using Debian for nearly 8 years (but still
> can't build a package from scratch) but I would NOT reccommend
> Debian by itself to other people but I do hand out Knoppix CDs
> to first time linux users. If it was not for Knoppix I would
> NOT be able to do this, as I would never foist a raw Debian
> system upon a linux newbie as it would be counter productive.
>
> ** It is absolutely unreasonable to expect folks should become
> software engineers to be able to surf the web via linux. **
>
> The fact that Klaus is not a regular Debian developer and that
> Debian have not adopted the Knoppix installation procedure,
> as is, tells me there is some kind of technical AND political
> schism between the two.
>
> So I would like to put whatever meagre resources I can spare
> into the system I have confidence in sharing with other people
> and that happens to be Knoppix rather than Debian itself.
>
> Klaus and friends, thank you most sincerely for your efforts.

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Ean Schuessler ean(at)brainfood(dot)com
Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com

On Thu, 1 May 2003 06:58 am, Ean Schuessler wrote:
> ...
> If you, or Klaus, think that Knoppix should form the basis of a new
> Debian installer then I say "awesome". However, I think you should focus
> on the technical problems rather than an imagined political schism.

Ean, thank you for your comments on my posting.

The socio/politcal schism I see is actually with KDE in Debian
and not so much with Knoppix per se. The introduction of KDE 3.1
in Debian mainstream was painful, fragmented and fragile. There
really needs to be a focussed KDE devel TEAM to get away from the
cult-of-personality and individual burn-out factors.

My point comes back to the subject of this thread... which is how
to provide an "open accounting" system of contributd resources to
segments of open source projects that the contributer WANTS their
contribution to go towards. As one individuals example, I do not
want my meagre share of whatever resources I can spare to go into
some black hole where other people decide my contribution can go
where they deem fit and I have no further control over the matter.

There is a simple solution to this dilema for me, don't contribute
anything and then I don't have a problem with this "problem".

However, WHAT IF (?) there are 1000s of mostly happy Debian users
out there with itches they could scratch but have no time or
inclination to directly attack the technical issues, but would
still be prepared to "contribute something"... and more likely
to do so if they felt, as I do, their contribution(s) went more
directly to the areas they deem important. The typical answer of
"be a real man and do some real work" simply doesn't cut it in
the 21st centrury with 99.9% of potential linux desktop users.

Gilles Pelletier has detailed his security concerns, I have noted
my KDE-in-Debian (KDEB) concerns, others have mentioned the partial
or whole adoption of Knoppix as a Debian install option. I only
have vague suggestions as to how to leverage this imagined windfall
of "contributed stuff" to help sponsor these efforts but this post
is long enough already.

--markc

Mark,

> My point comes back to the subject of this thread... which is how
> to provide an "open accounting" system of contributd resources to
> segments of open source projects that the contributer WANTS their
> contribution to go towards. As one individuals example, I do not
> want my meagre share of whatever resources I can spare to go into
> some black hole where other people decide my contribution can go
> where they deem fit and I have no further control over the matter.
>
> There is a simple solution to this dilema for me, don't contribute
> anything and then I don't have a problem with this "problem".
>
> However, WHAT IF (?) there are 1000s of mostly happy Debian users
> out there with itches they could scratch but have no time or
> inclination to directly attack the technical issues, but would
> still be prepared to "contribute something"... and more likely
> to do so if they felt, as I do, their contribution(s) went more
> directly to the areas they deem important. The typical answer of
> "be a real man and do some real work" simply doesn't cut it in
> the 21st centrury with 99.9% of potential linux desktop users.

I like the idea of being able to contribute at the package or
group-of-packages level, but I see a few challenges:

1) I might like the idea of supporting the package maintainer,
but I might prefer to support the upstream developers instead.
Do I get to choose?

2) I might like the idea of donating to support work that I
don't have time to do, but who will see that my donations
are being used wisely and distributed fairly? If I give
$1000, does that buy me 1 hour or 100 hours of development
time? Who keeps track? If 1000 people give $10 each, but
there's only a little work to be done, does the package
maintainer get it all anyway?

3) When the money is distributed to a programmer, are they
employed by Debian for tax purposes? What if they live outside
the country?

4) There are many services for Debian performed by non-maintainers.
Do they get a piece of the pie, or would we need to create a
mechanism for allowing contributions to groups like the security
team?

5) I might want to contribute to the debian translation teams
so that package descriptions and other important information is
available in a specific language (e.g., Slovak). Are we willing
to provide conduits for funding to non-programming services as well
as programming services?

I think it would be relatively easy to provide an accounting
mechanism, but I'm not sure how to make it accountable.

Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Ontko rayo(at)ontko(dot)com Phone 1.765.935.4283 Fax 1.765.962.9788
Ray Ontko & Co. Software Consulting Services http://www.ontko.com/

On Thu, 1 May 2003 10:46 am, Ray Ontko wrote:
> > My point comes back to the subject of this thread... which is how
> > to provide an "open accounting" system of contributd resources to
> > segments of open source projects that the contributer WANTS their
> > contribution to go towards.
> > ...

> I like the idea of being able to contribute at the package or
> group-of-packages level, but I see a few challenges:
>
> 1) I might like the idea of supporting the package maintainer,
> but I might prefer to support the upstream developers instead.
> Do I get to choose?

Yes, if the kind of system I'm vaguely thinking of existed then
it'd be from-anyone to-anyone for any-reason.

> 2) I might like the idea of donating to support work that I
> don't have time to do, but who will see that my donations
> are being used wisely and distributed fairly? If I give
> $1000, does that buy me 1 hour or 100 hours of development
> time? Who keeps track? If 1000 people give $10 each, but
> there's only a little work to be done, does the package
> maintainer get it all anyway?

No doubt the policies to manage this are complex but they could
be consolidated into code and presented as a web interface rather
than "hidden" in some committee or individual that makes the call.

> 3) When the money is distributed to a programmer, are they
> employed by Debian for tax purposes? What if they live outside
> the country?

I am not in the US and my imagined focussed contributions would
be to KDE and Knoppix which are also non-US based so, for me,
the system would have to be completely free of any US legalities
or I simply would not "trust" it, for a wide range of reasons.
The fact that SPI/FSF/EFF are US tax exempt is meaningless, to me,
and last time I really took any notice, most people on the planet
live outside of US... err, sensibilities.

> 4) There are many services for Debian performed by non-maintainers.
> Do they get a piece of the pie, or would we need to create a
> mechanism for allowing contributions to groups like the security
> team?

I would think the potential contibutor could nominate what they
are prepared to contribute towards and "negotiate" with developer(s)
to achieve the end result. There are zillions of web portal/wiki
examples to provide a base and open forum for these "negotiations".
The most fundamental aspect is that it all MUST be (in RFC parlance)
a completely open and transparent interaction.

> 5) I might want to contribute to the debian translation teams
> so that package descriptions and other important information is
> available in a specific language (e.g., Slovak). Are we willing
> to provide conduits for funding to non-programming services as well
> as programming services?

Yes, absolutely ! If you want to contribute to something, as you've
outlined, then this "open accounting" system could easily accomodate
non-hard-core-programmers all the way to the logo/icon level...
even peer-to-peer distribution systems where folks could "donate"
bandwidth and hard drive space to help propogate projects comes into
this "open accounting and open source" model. It's not just cash.
Sourceforge is a magnificent resouce but what if they ever go
belly-up or Bill decides to buy them out.

> I think it would be relatively easy to provide an accounting
> mechanism, but I'm not sure how to make it accountable.

One clue for accountability is to get an SSL cert from
http://freessl.com, while some are free, and see how they have
solved, in my opinion, the identity issues internationally. I
can't think of enough superlatives to describe the procedure.
Awesome is barely good enough... not a bit of paper or fax-crap
in sight and works jst fine from 10,000 miles away from the US.

--markc

From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> Yes, if the kind of system I'm vaguely thinking of existed then
> it'd be from-anyone to-anyone for any-reason.

See affero.com .

Thanks

Bruce

On Thu, 1 May 2003 01:29 pm, Bruce Perens wrote:
> From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> > Yes, if the kind of system I'm vaguely thinking of existed then
> > it'd be from-anyone to-anyone for any-reason.
>
> See affero.com .

Close, very close, but the to-anyone part does not apply. The
beneficeries have to be pe-nominated "charities" so I can't
patronise an individual or team unless they go thru the hoops
to register themselves with this system first.

--markc

Mark & Co., meet Henri Poole.

Henri,

We've been having a discussion about micro-project sponsorship on some
Debian-related mailing lists. Mark took a look at your system and seems
to be looking for something less formal. I use Paypal for this, but Paypal
has its problems. Perhaps you and Mark can discuss this more thoroughly.

Thanks

Bruce

From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> Yes, if the kind of system I'm vaguely thinking of existed then
> it'd be from-anyone to-anyone for any-reason.

On Thu, 1 May 2003 01:29 pm, Bruce Perens wrote:
> See affero.com .

From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
> Close, very close, but the to-anyone part does not apply. The
> beneficeries have to be pe-nominated "charities" so I can't
> patronise an individual or team unless they go thru the hoops
> to register themselves with this system first.

On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 11:47:27AM +1000, Mark Constable wrote:
> I am not in the US and my imagined focussed contributions would
> be to KDE and Knoppix which are also non-US based so, for me,
> the system would have to be completely free of any US legalities
> or I simply would not "trust" it, for a wide range of reasons.
> The fact that SPI/FSF/EFF are US tax exempt is meaningless, to me,
> and last time I really took any notice, most people on the planet
> live outside of US... err, sensibilities.

There is a German partner of SPI, www.ffis.de, see
<http://www.ffis.de/Verein/spi-en.html> for donation.

Cheers,
Bill.

Previously Bill Allombert wrote:
> There is a German partner of SPI, www.ffis.de, see
> <http://www.ffis.de/Verein/spi-en.html> for donation.

For very minimal values of 'partner'. The contact with them is very
minimal and I have never seen any financial statements from them.
Actually, I think I still need to get some stuff refunded from them :)

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple.

On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 04:40:09PM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> Previously Bill Allombert wrote:
> > There is a German partner of SPI, www.ffis.de, see
> > <http://www.ffis.de/Verein/spi-en.html> for donation.
>
> For very minimal values of 'partner'. The contact with them is very
> minimal and I have never seen any financial statements from them.
> Actually, I think I still need to get some stuff refunded from them :)

I was just quoting SPI web site:
http://www.spi-inc.org/donations

Donations in Europe can be done through our partner in
Germany, ffis e.V. If you are interested in using their
bank account (to save international money transfer
costs), please check the instructions.

This can be a item to discuss if joey is present at the next irc
meeting or otherwise.

Cheers,
Bill.

* Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> [2003-05-01 16:40]:
> > There is a German partner of SPI, www.ffis.de, see
> > <http://www.ffis.de/Verein/spi-en.html> for donation.
>
> For very minimal values of 'partner'. The contact with them is very
> minimal and I have never seen any financial statements from them.
> Actually, I think I still need to get some stuff refunded from them :)

The contact is through Joey and seems to be working well. I have
access to their account summary of Debian related donations.

--
Martin Michlmayr
leader(at)debian(dot)org

Mark,

We are working on enabling payments to individuals (as well as formal
orgs). We support multiparty paylists. What do you have in mind for your
full set of requirements?

-Henri

Bruce Perens wrote:
> Mark & Co., meet Henri Poole.
>
> Henri,
>
> We've been having a discussion about micro-project sponsorship on some
> Debian-related mailing lists. Mark took a look at your system and seems
> to be looking for something less formal. I use Paypal for this, but Paypal
> has its problems. Perhaps you and Mark can discuss this more thoroughly.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
>
>>Yes, if the kind of system I'm vaguely thinking of existed then
>>it'd be from-anyone to-anyone for any-reason.
>
>
> On Thu, 1 May 2003 01:29 pm, Bruce Perens wrote:
>
>>See affero.com .
>
>
> From: Mark Constable <markc(at)renta(dot)net>
>
>>Close, very close, but the to-anyone part does not apply. The
>>beneficeries have to be pe-nominated "charities" so I can't
>>patronise an individual or team unless they go thru the hoops
>>to register themselves with this system first.
>

--
---------------------------------------------
Share your thoughts and support my work here:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=Poole

On Sat, 3 May 2003 03:32 am, Henri Poole wrote:
> We are working on enabling payments to individuals (as well as formal
> orgs). We support multiparty paylists. What do you have in mind for your
> full set of requirements?

Reference for others: http://affero.org

> Bruce Perens wrote:
> > We've been having a discussion about micro-project sponsorship on some
> > Debian-related mailing lists. Mark took a look at your system and seems
> > to be looking for something less formal. I use Paypal for this, but
> > Paypal has its problems. Perhaps you and Mark can discuss this more
> > thoroughly.

Ok, I'll try and be agnostic about my personal prejudices. As I see
it there are at least 3 requirements to satisfy.

a) someone, or organization, who has a need and is prepared to donate
something (and not necessarily cash) to at least assist progression
of an open source project in a direction they deem worthy

The typical response of "show me the code or shutup" crucifies up to
99% of potential input by an ever widening usage of open source software
by non-developers. It used to work last century but this is the age
of users expecting the likes of Longhorn to be dropped in their laps
soon, so if linux is ever going to gain mass appeal then it needs a
broader base of voluntary input of resources to compete for desktop
mindshare.

b) developers, the virtual shamans and warriors of open source, need
resources, including cash, to help them weave their magic

Hats off to Sourceforge for providing a premiere example of non-cash
support for a significant number of open source projects.

c) is simply folks who are both a) and b) at the same time

Code and idea sharing is the basis of open source and goes on all the
time but it's random and spontaneous with few formal guidelines.

a) folks need to be able to specify what kind of partial or end result
they are prepared to contribute towards and it needs to be clear what
skills b) folks have and/or are prepared to work towards gaining. A
range of donations and expected results has to catered for. Roughly
$10 USD is a reasonable minimum donation, considering overheads, and
a sum of 10 x $10 cash payments is probably a reasonable minimum to
transfer to a b) individual or project. c) interaction could be as
simple and wild as "I'll send you my old P300 I don't need any more
if you assure me you'll take care of these security patches until
at least next xmas". To someone in a 4th world country that could be
mana from upstairs.

Obviously how to implement this is the hard part but having a
COMPLETELY open and searchable system of nominations for "jobs"
posted by potential donors and a clearly indexed system of recipients
and their skillsets is an obvious start along with forum/wiki/blog
and mailing-lists to facilitate the interaction and negotiation
betweenthe two sides. Even things like "old" 20Gb hard drives could
be offered or solicited, not just cash.

Here's hoping what I've briefly outlined is not so obvious it's
a waste of bytespace. My personal interest is to apply the above
principles to artistic endeavor every bit as much as hard core
code development... and hoping the long term ripple affect might
seep into the non-internetworked world.

(I've taken the liberty of removing debian-knoppix as it's clearly
no longer a specific technical issue for that forum)

--markc