Re: Issue #15 - Misleading "Linux" link on /projects/debian/

http://www.spi-inc.org/projects/debian/ contains:

> Debian uses the Linux <https://www.linux.com/> kernel (the core of an
> operating system), but most of the basic OS tools come from the GNU
> project <https://www.gnu.org/>; hence the name GNU/Linux.

While the second link expectedly brings to gnu.org, the first one goes
to linux.com, a website of "The Linux Foundation", which contains a
"What is Linux?" page: https://www.linux.com/what-is-linux

That page is very confusing, giving 2 contradictory definitions of "Linux":

> Just like Windows, iOS, and Mac OS, Linux is an operating system. [...]
>
> The OS is comprised of a number of pieces:
>
> *
>
> *The Bootloader:* [...]
>
> *
>
> *The kernel:* This is the one piece of the whole that is actually
> called “Linux”. The kernel is the core of the system and manages
> the CPU, memory, and peripheral devices. The kernel is the
> “lowest” level of the OS.
>
> *
>
> *Daemons:* [...]
>
> *
>
> *The Shell:* [...]
>
> *
>
> *Graphical Server:* [...]
>
> *
>
> *Desktop Environment:* [...]
>
> *
>
> *Applications:* [...]
>

--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 10:05:08PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> http://www.spi-inc.org/projects/debian/ contains:
>
> > Debian uses the Linux <https://www.linux.com/> kernel (the core of an
> > operating system), but most of the basic OS tools come from the GNU
> > project <https://www.gnu.org/>; hence the name GNU/Linux.
>
> While the second link expectedly brings to gnu.org, the first one goes to
> linux.com, a website of "The Linux Foundation", which contains a "What is
> Linux?" page: https://www.linux.com/what-is-linux
>
> That page is very confusing, giving 2 contradictory definitions of "Linux":

SPI has no control over the content on https://www.linux.com or
https://linuxfoundation.org/projects/linux. Both websites belonging to
The Linux Foundation. Please contact them with editorial suggetions.

--
Luca Filipozzi

Thank you Luca,

On 03/10/2019 01:09, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 10:05:08PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>> http://www.spi-inc.org/projects/debian/ contains:
>>
>>> Debian uses the Linux <https://www.linux.com/> kernel (the core of an
>>> operating system), but most of the basic OS tools come from the GNU
>>> project <https://www.gnu.org/>; hence the name GNU/Linux.
>> While the second link expectedly brings to gnu.org, the first one goes to
>> linux.com, a website of "The Linux Foundation", which contains a "What is
>> Linux?" page: https://www.linux.com/what-is-linux
>>
>> That page is very confusing, giving 2 contradictory definitions of "Linux":
> SPI has no control over the content on https://www.linux.com or
> https://linuxfoundation.org/projects/linux. Both websites belonging to
> The Linux Foundation. Please contact them with editorial suggetions.

Looking at https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/contact/ it seems the
issue tracker of The Linux Foundation requires an account just to verify
that this wasn't already reported, so I will not do that, but if someone
has an account, it would be good to check.

However, the SPI side should be reconsidered first. The current phrasing
seems to say the Linux kernel is the core of all operating systems,
which is obviously wrong. In fact, even Debian does not necessarily have
Linux as its kernel, as Debian's website shows. This part was probably
written a while ago, but nowadays even Debian's homepage does not say a
word about Linux.

I believe SPI should defer to Debian to explain such complicated stuff,
and focus on stuff which matters to potential users, like Debian's user
base / market share or what it offers. Rather than pretending Debian
works on "your computer" (as if everyone still had a single computer),
explain what computers Debian supports or does not support.

So there are at least 2 ways to avoid getting The Linux Foundation involved:
1. Do not refer to Linux
2. Remove the link on "Linux" (and possibly add another link now or
later if we find an appropriate one)

--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 07:36:10PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> I believe SPI should defer to Debian to explain such complicated stuff

I'm fairly confident that it was Debian folks that provided that content
in the first place. I'm happy to ask the liaison for updated text.

--
Luca Filipozzi

Thanks Lucas,

On 03/10/2019 22:40, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 07:36:10PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>> I believe SPI should defer to Debian to explain such complicated stuff
> I'm fairly confident that it was Debian folks that provided that content
> in the first place. I'm happy to ask the liaison for updated text.

Sorry, what I meant was that SPI's website should let Debian's website
get into implementation details. As soon as a description has made it
clear where a project stands relative to other associated projects, I
think it has enough information. The only value I could see in putting
more information on SPI's website would be to publish a view without the
project's bias, but I don't think Debian is trying to hide its usage of
Linux.

P.S. I didn't mean to say the issue was just SPI's fault - it could very
well be that such a text came from Debian, but removal remains one way
to solve the issue (although I agree that all other things being equal,
the more the associated project agrees with our description, the better).

--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

On Sat, Oct 05, 2019 at 11:12:27AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> On 03/10/2019 22:40, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 07:36:10PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> > > I believe SPI should defer to Debian to explain such complicated stuff
> > I'm fairly confident that it was Debian folks that provided that content
> > in the first place. I'm happy to ask the liaison for updated text.
>
> Sorry, what I meant was that SPI's website should let Debian's website get
> into implementation details. As soon as a description has made it clear
> where a project stands relative to other associated projects, I think it has
> enough information. The only value I could see in putting more information
> on SPI's website would be to publish a view without the project's bias, but
> I don't think Debian is trying to hide its usage of Linux.
>
> P.S. I didn't mean to say the issue was just SPI's fault - it could very
> well be that such a text came from Debian, but removal remains one way to
> solve the issue (although I agree that all other things being equal, the
> more the associated project agrees with our description, the better).

I undestood you. My point is that the description of a project on the
SPI website should be provided, ideally, or be approved by the project
liaison. I happen to know enough about Debian to write, I hope, a good
description. This isn't true of the other projects and I would seek out
their liaisons.

--
Luca Filipozzi

Hi Luca,

On 05/10/2019 14:32, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 05, 2019 at 11:12:27AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>> On 03/10/2019 22:40, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
>>> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 07:36:10PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>>>> I believe SPI should defer to Debian to explain such complicated stuff
>>> I'm fairly confident that it was Debian folks that provided that content
>>> in the first place. I'm happy to ask the liaison for updated text.
>> Sorry, what I meant was that SPI's website should let Debian's website get
>> into implementation details. As soon as a description has made it clear
>> where a project stands relative to other associated projects, I think it has
>> enough information. The only value I could see in putting more information
>> on SPI's website would be to publish a view without the project's bias, but
>> I don't think Debian is trying to hide its usage of Linux.
>>
>> P.S. I didn't mean to say the issue was just SPI's fault - it could very
>> well be that such a text came from Debian, but removal remains one way to
>> solve the issue (although I agree that all other things being equal, the
>> more the associated project agrees with our description, the better).
> I undestood you. My point is that the description of a project on the
> SPI website should be provided, ideally, or be approved by the project
> liaison.

As I wrote, I agree with that, particularly regarding validity. However,
removing detail should not make a description less valid. In fact, as I
suggested, removing this specific information could now arguably even
increase validity.

> I happen to know enough about Debian to write, I hope, a good
> description. This isn't true of the other projects and I would seek out
> their liaisons.

I am extremely knowledgeable about Debian and happen to have been an
important member of its communication team for years. I am not saying
that removal is best, but I can assure you it is a valid option.

Anyway, I am not sure what you are arguing, but at this point, it may be
best to clarify your claim. Do you think Debian provided just the
description's text, or its exact content, including the links? I would
be rather surprised if they provided that exact content considering that:
1. Their homepage includes more details than that about Debian, but
nothing about Linux.
2. The "Linux" link in the detailed description of Debian on Debian's
website (https://www.debian.org/intro/about) points to kernel.org, not
to linux.com. By the way, I find a link to kernel.org there more
appropriate, though I am not sure a link to kernel.org's homepage is
really useful.

--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

On Sun, Oct 06, 2019 at 07:48:08AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> I am not sure what you are arguing, but at this point, it may be best
> to clarify your claim.

I'm simply saying that the project liaisons should have some input into
the content and I'd be pleased if they did so. I have not yet received a
response. I'll give them another few business days before poking again.

--
Luca Filipozzi

On Sun, Oct 06, 2019 at 07:48:08AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> I am extremely knowledgeable about Debian and happen to have been an
> important member of its communication team for years. I am not saying that
> removal is best, but I can assure you it is a valid option.
>

Could you clarify this point? This is inaccurate to put it lightly.

Neil

Hi Luca,

On 06/10/2019 13:59, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 06, 2019 at 07:48:08AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>> I am not sure what you are arguing, but at this point, it may be best
>> to clarify your claim.
> I'm simply saying that the project liaisons should have some input into
> the content and I'd be pleased if they did so. I have not yet received a
> response. I'll give them another few business days before poking again.

Ah, that's different then. For a safe case like this it should be enough to:

0. Ideally, describe the problem and indicate the solution you think is
best, indicating how long you intend to wait for an answer and putting
the mailing in Cc so there is no need to indicate if the project did not
respond.
1. After the change was done, notice the project.

If you are very hesitant, you can also contact
debian-publicity(at)lists(dot)debian(dot)org in this case.

--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 06:51:43PM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> On 06/10/2019 13:59, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 06, 2019 at 07:48:08AM -0400, Philippe Cloutier wrote:
> > > I am not sure what you are arguing, but at this point, it may be
> > > best to clarify your claim.
> > I'm simply saying that the project liaisons should have some input
> > into the content and I'd be pleased if they did so. I have not yet
> > received a response. I'll give them another few business days before
> > poking again.
>
> [snip]
>
> If you are very hesitant, you can also contact
> debian-publicity(at)lists(dot)debian(dot)org in this case.

It's not hesitancy but respect for our associated project.

After consulting with the associated project liaison for Debian, the
Debian Press team will will work on revised text for the description of
Debian on the SPI website.

Thanks,

Luca

--
Luca Filipozzi